1980's Built Hawken Rifle

[jolly bill]

I’m looking for some help evaluating a Hawken rifle that was built from parts acquired from the Hawken Shop in St. Louis  MO in the early 1980’s.
The gun is pictured below and here are some of the details. It has a 36 1/8” octagon barrel and is marked “W. M. LARGE / JJJJ / L” on the left side of the barrel near the breech.  I’m guessing it is a .54 caliber from the measurements I got from measuring the bore.  Diameter of the grooves is about 0.540” and diameter of the lands is around 0.505”.  The barrel measures 0.975” across the flats at the muzzle and 1.10” at the breech end.   The length of the gun from the end of the muzzle to the heel of the butt plate is 53 ¼”; from the end of the one piece nose cap to the heel is 32 3/8” and from the tip end of the stock at the nose cap to the heel is 31 ½”.  The gun weighs 10 ¾ pounds.  As you can see from the pictures, it has a very nicely figured maple stock.  Not certain if it has a Roller’s lock or Shillinger’s lock.  Length of pull is 14 inches to center of butt plate. The gun is in excellent condition.  The only wart is a very small (1/8”) piece of the stock is missing on the left side at the nose cap.
Any thoughts on what the current market value would be for the gun?
Thanks for your help and comments.

Correction on the caliber of the gun pictured above:  It is a .50 caliber.













upload photos to internet

[Keb]

jolly, I sold a .50 caliber Hawken gun a few years ago with all hand made parts, lock, patent breech, snail, triggers, guard & butt plates, etc. for $1850. It was (IMHO) a nicer gun than this one but I could be partial.

[mark brier]

This caught my attention very quickly. Not saying it is for sure but this rifle struck me as one that I built many years ago. It certainly reminds me of the first Hawken I built which would have been in 89 I know because I was in the 7th grade and used parts that were from my grandfathers (T.K. Dawson) shop. Unfortunately I now only have 2 Large barrels left that are stamped with the original Hawken stamp.
Mark Brier

[Martin S.]

Mark, what does the "JJJJ" and "L" stand for?

Just curious.  Is that a grade of barrel?

I have always heard about Bill Large "match barrels", but I have never owned one.

OP, nice looking rifle.

[smokinbuck]

Hopefully Bob Roller will see this and join in. The JJJJ's are for each of Bill Large's daughters names. The "L", I think, means that Bill cut the barrel himself. I have had Large barrels with a "L" on the barrel as this one and one that has a "L" on the face of the muzzle.
Mark

[mark brier]

Yes the 4 J's are for his daughters. I am drawing a blank at the moment on two of them. There was Janice, Jeanine,?,?. The shop I believe was taken over by his son in law or grandson. They made some barrels that in my opinion not up to Uncle Bill's standards. But when the tooling wore out or broke they had no idea how to make new and thus it closed down.
Mark Brier

[Bob Roller]

Hopefully Bob Roller will see this and join in. The JJJJ's are for each of Bill Large's daughters names. The "L", I think, means that Bill cut the barrel himself. I have had Large barrels with a "L" on the barrel as this one and one that has a "L" on the face of the muzzle.
Mark

That was Bill's indicator of hand cut lands.The girls were Jeanine,Joann,Jeanette and Janice.
Joann is deceased.I call Jeanette once or twice a month and she is a cancer survivor.Jeanine
and Janice I haven't seen for years. Jeanette and some of her friends were in Shoney's two
weeks ago and she seems OK.

Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

Yes the 4 J's are for his daughters. I am drawing a blank at the moment on two of them. There was Janice, Jeanine,?,?. The shop I believe was taken over by his son in law or grandson. They made some barrels that in my opinion not up to Uncle Bill's standards. But when the tooling wore out or broke they had no idea how to make new and thus it closed down.
Mark Brier

One of Bill and Shirley's grandsons tried to keep the shop going but he was never really
interested and didn't spend time trying to learn what he needed to know.He had some
other issues I won't get into. You're right about the tooling wearing out and no ability
to repair/replace it. The shop sat dormant for over 20 years until Jim McLemore bought
everything except the cobwebs. It took a bit of convincing to get Jeanette to sell it but
I told her that McLemore was a better option than a junk yard so she agreed to sell it.

Bob Roller

[Martin S.]

Bob, do you think the lock on the rifle is yours?

[jolly bill]

Thanks everyone for the remarks and comments.  Much appreciated.

Anyone have a ball park estimate of its value?

Jolly

[Bob Roller]

Bob, do you think the lock on the rifle is yours?

Very possible. I did use this hammer on a number of locks intended for Hawken repros.
The small screws and the small (#44) hole for the mainspring's upper limb look like my
work.Al Schilliger used a much different and heavier appearing hammer.

Bob Roller

[Don Stith]

Art supplied those hammers to both lock makers
  Only a good picture of the other side of the lock is going to get the answer
 You looking to buy, or sell this rifle? Might be  a good one to list in the classifieds

[jolly bill]

Art supplied those hammers to both lock makers
  Only a good picture of the other side of the lock is going to get the answer
 You looking to buy, or sell this rifle? Might be  a good one to list in the classifieds

I suppose I could carefully remove the screw from the left side and lift the lock off for a good picture.

I'm probably looking to sell the gun but being a "rookie", I can't post anything for sale til after 30 days.  I'm in no hurry.
Thanks for your comments.
Jolly

[Martin S.]

I think if you price it fairly, it will sell quickly.

It would be good to know how you acquired the gun, was it your fathers?

I wish it didn't have that greenish tint, that lowers the value somewhat, IMHO.

Still, with a Large barrel, and if you have a Roller lock, it will sell.

[Mike Brooks]

That greenish tint could be from the yellow back ground the photos were taken on......or then again it may just be green too.....

[jolly bill]

That greenish tint could be from the yellow back ground the photos were taken on......or then again it may just be green too.....

You guys gotta help me with the greenish tint . . .
I can't see it on my screen.  Is it on the stock or barrels?
Thanx, Jolly.

[Longknife]

"LARGE / JJJJ / L” on the left side of the barrel near the breech.  I’m guessing it is a .54 caliber from the measurements I got from measuring the bore.  Diameter of the grooves is about 0.540” and diameter of the lands is around 0.505"


Bill. that would be a 50 caliber rifle....

[Martin S.]

That greenish tint could be from the yellow back ground the photos were taken on......or then again it may just be green too.....

You guys gotta help me with the greenish tint . . .
I can't see it on my screen.  Is it on the stock or barrels?
Thanx, Jolly.

The stock.

This one is more yellowish green.  One of the staining agents of that time period eventually turned a greenish hue over time.  It gets worse as the years go by, I think.  There was another thread where someone scraped off the old finish and refinished a rifle to sell it, just recently.

Of course, it might be the background playing tricks on my eyes. 

If you sell it, use a white sheet for background, so the color comes out true.

[jolly bill]

I think if you price it fairly, it will sell quickly.

It would be good to know how you acquired the gun, was it your fathers?

I wish it didn't have that greenish tint, that lowers the value somewhat, IMHO.

Still, with a Large barrel, and if you have a Roller lock, it will sell.

Martin,
To answer your questions . . .
I got the Hawken plus an assortment of accessories from a friend, who because of his health, age and moving to smaller quarters, is thinning out his toys.

I got some more pictures of the gun that I copied below that includes: a close up of the stock that will hopefully show the stock color better; picture of the inside of the lock that hopefully someone will be able to identify and a picture of all the accessories that I got with the gun.

And I asked the builder of the gun what he used to finish the stock with.  He said he used the stain that was recommended by the Hawken shop and over that he used a hot combination of bees wax and linseed oil.  He applied that mixture several times and rubbing down with soft steel wool between coats.

Does this picture still show a greenish tint?  Whose lock is on the gun?  Neat bunch of accessories.

Hope this helps some.

And thanks and have a Great Memorial Day weekend and many thanks to all our veterans.

Jolly

[Bob Roller]

That is not my lock. Maybe Ron Long,possibly Schillinger but with no name it's
anyones guess.

Bob Roller

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I suspect that the stock was stained with Chromium Trioxide, a popular maple stock stain of that era.  When first applied, the stock takes on a rich red/brown colour that looks great.  Over time, it fades from UV and a greenish hue remains. 

[jolly bill]

"LARGE / JJJJ / L” on the left side of the barrel near the breech.  I’m guessing it is a .54 caliber from the measurements I got from measuring the bore.  Diameter of the grooves is about 0.540” and diameter of the lands is around 0.505"


Bill. that would be a 50 caliber rifle....

Longknife,

Thank you for determining the caliber of the Hawken.  I assumed it was a .54.

I'm more into classical American made side by side shotguns (A. H. Fox's that have smooth bores and load from the other end) so front loaders are a bit strange for me.

And thanks too for every one else that responded to my inquiry.

Jolly

[Don Stith]

Dug out my 1980 vintage Shillinger lock.  It is not his internals either

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Looks to me like a Ron Long mainspring.

I see what appears to me to be black powder fouling in the hammer's cup and throat, and on the inside of the bolster.  This concerns me.  From my experience, if a shooter can't be bothered to clean the outside where you can see fouling, how can the bore be any better.  I hope I'm wrong.

[Mtn Meek]

It is a Ron Long assembled lock.  It's the same as on my Hawken Shop Hawken that I posted about here.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=32210.msg327943#msg327943

The internals are from Ron Long's flintlock while the main spring is from his percussion lock.