Schroyer's Tang Carving and Faux Curl

[MKemper]

I have an unsigned York rifle that shows many of characteristics found on Schroyer's rifles (ie: patchbox, engraving, etc.). The one difference that has me curious is the tang carving.  It looks like Schroyer almost always used his fluer de lis profile at the tang.  My rifle has a rococo carving more like that seen on Beck's work.  Did Shroyer ever deviate from the fluer de lis?  Secondly, this rifle has a faux curl that looks to be original as it is worn off in the forearm area and elsewhere.  Do you all see this occasionally on original rifles? 

[rlm]

Schreyer did indeed use tang carvings other than the fleur-de le. If you are fortunate enough to have Shumway's book some variations are illustrated. I also believe that Mel Hankla has detailed photos of a some what "nontypical" Shroyer at his American historic services web site.

[JTR]

Sounds interesting!
Can you post some pictures?
John

[MKemper]

This is my first time posting photos...so here goes

[MKemper]

Still trying to post multiple images:

[B Shipman]

You've got a very nice Henry Koons. Real sure.

[JTR]

That is a nice rifle!

Why are you real sure it's a H. Koons, Bill? Not doubting, just curious.
John

[B Shipman]

JTR, Koons was closely associated with Schreyer, maybe a journeyman. I think an apprentice because his buttplate differed from any Schreyer. Note the shape and the very long tang of the buttplate. No Schreyer is like this. Look at No. 52 in Shumway's Schreyer book. Identical buttplate. On this gun note the paralell lines on the patchbox lid engraving, how far they are from the edge. Identical on both the gun here and the Koons gun in Shumways book. Yet Schreyer did this as well sometimes. The gun pictured does not have , just seeing the tail of it, the typical Koons sideplate, but certainly he may have varied this. The overall flavor of the work, not in it's style, but in it's execution, is very Koons and less Schreyer.

[nord]

After review of the comments I wish to add a few of my own...

On first review the rifle is so Shroyeresque that I'd not question the maker, except to note that Sr. and Jr. were both in the business. I'd further note that Schroyer rifles are invariably somewhat different one from another.

This particular rifle has a bit more squared off architecture around the butt than I'm used to in a Schroyer. The rifle displays incised carving rather than relief carving to the rear of the cheekpiece. These two details admittedly give me some pause. But the patchbox... It says Schroyer all over as does the relief to the rear of the tang.

I'm comfortable with a Schroyer attribution though I believe we'd be remiss not to state that this rifle may well be the product of the Schroyer shop rather than made directly by George or Jr. Schroyer.

We can speculate on the actual maker and we can speculate on circumstance. Being unsigned the particulars will be forever lost to time.

What isn't lost is the connection to Schroyer. George Schroyer influenced the building of this fine rifle either directly or indirectly. The quality and style is obvious even if the hand is not.

[JTR]

Well, I'm at a bit of disadvantage here as I'm out on the ship, and the only reference I have available is the KRA CD of rifles. And I have to admit that I don't have Shroyer/Koons details committed to memory.
I agree that the butt plate is different than Shroyers, and I don't see a lot of Shroyer in the carving either, and it seems Shroyer liked to do that cut where the wrist meets the butt stock, which this rifle is missing.
But if you compare the details of the Engraving on the patchbox, say the small details in the engraving on the finale flower it is very similar to Shroyers hand shown on the KRA disc # 236 and 227, as is the detailing of the scallop on the side plates, and the three piece hinge on the door.
As I remember, the books show at least one Shroyer with this tang caving, instead of his usual flur. But I don't know that I've ever seen a Shroyer with a faux painted stock.
The disc only shows one rifle by Koons, # 151, and the engraving style is completely different in detail.
Just going by the afore mentioned, I'd say Shroyer made the patchbox, if not the entire gun.
So that's my 2 bits, if only worth 2 cents.
John

[B Shipman]

Nord, we're not far apart. If you look at the Koons rifle in Sumways book, you could say that Schreyer did that as well, especially the patchbox.  Yet it's signed Koons. The buttplate is the kicker. Basically atypical Schreyer with Koons buttplate equals Koons. Though he may have made it with George looking over his shoulder. Thus made in the Schreyer shop. No certainties for sure but it struck me that way as soon as I saw it.

[keweenaw]

That butt plate sticks out like a sore thumb.  The incised cheek side carving, the way the volutes come off the comb and the lock panel tails all say not Schreyer.  The patch box was, however definitely cut from one of Schreyer's patterns and he may have engraved it. 

Tom

[Ky-Flinter]

The pictures that were originally in the posts above were lost in the Photobucket debacle.  The current owner of the rifle discussed above was gracious enough to make the following pictures available.

-Ron
ALR Moderator

[mr. no gold]

It certainly looks like a Shroyer to my eye. Koons used a distinctive side plate on many of his rifles and this one does not have that. Nice rifle; thanks for posting the photos here.