cleaning between shots

[RichG]

Anyone have a gun that only shoots good if you clean between shots? Using mink oil, RB, ticking. Fairly shallow square groove rifling. trying to work up a hunting load so I'm not looking to use a liquid lube. Any solutions that you may have found?

[hanshi]

The only solution I've found is to use tight loads; but loads that you can still seat with the wood rod.  I have no rifles that have to be wiped between shots or that can't shoot all afternoon without wiping.  I use mink oil for hunting and lften at the range.

[Hungry Horse]

There is no quick fix for shallow rifling. It will clog with fowlings, and be hard to load successive shots. But the up side is, it seals up much better than really deep rifling. My question is, how many shots would you be loading in succession, in a hunting situation? I would say that if you are having loading problems on your second or third shots, you need to reevaluate your patch ball combo.

  Hungry Horse

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Must be squirrel or hog hunting...lots of reloads in some country..... if I are going to be shooting that many times I would use Mr. Flintlock lubed patches.... not as sopping wet as I do at the range though... they will work fine for quite some time based on my experience.  And they really help the loading.

[Darkhorse]

I've never tried Mr. Flintlocks lube but it sounds similar to LeHigh Valley Original patch lube, and I've used a lot of that. When my .40 Rice was new the only lube that allowed multiple shots was LHV, as  there was just so much hard fouling one or two shots was all I could get without cleaning. But now that the barrel is well broken in I can use any lube.
Trouble is it dries out so fast you are hunting with a dry patch.
I needed (wanted) a lube with the cleaning properties of LHV, that also allowed almost endless shots without cleaning like LHV, but would not completely dry out. So I mixed some LHV and Canola oil about 50-50, could probably go less on the LHV with the same results. I soaked a patch and put it in the freezer, it got a little stiffer but hasn't frozen yet and it's been in there 2 or 3 months. I have used it a good bit and so far it's just as accurate as 100% LHV, and still allows multiple shots without cleaning. I don't know how many yet.
I needed a lube for squirrel and turkey hunting that would not dry out no matter if I took one shot or a lot of shot's. It works perfect for that but I won't use it yet for a deer lube where the rifle might remain loaded for several days or weeks, because I don't know if it will rust the barrel.
BTW for identification I christened it "Longhunter Lube."

[Daryl]

There is no quick fix for shallow rifling. It will clog with fowlings, and be hard to load successive shots. But the up side is, it seals up much better than really deep rifling. My question is, how many shots would you be loading in succession, in a hunting situation? I would say that if you are having loading problems on your second or third shots, you need to reevaluate your patch ball combo.

  Hungry Horse

The shallowest rifling I had t load for, was .004"- a button rifled TC barrel.  In that, I use a tight ball (.495") and Denim .020" to .022") patch combination, just as Hanshi & H.Horse noted and NEVER had any fouling build-up, that is, AFTER I learned to use tight combinations. All I used on that rifle for a loading rod, was a 3/8" hickory, as provided. Yes - broke one or two that had bad grain run out, it happens.

[OldMtnMan]

No idea how you get a load that tight down the bore? I'd have to pound it down with a steel ramrod. Then after it was shot once it would be hopeless to get it down. A tight fit won't wipe away all the fouling and if it's almost impossible to load on a clean barrel. How can it get any better?

[hanshi]

All I can say is that it works for me; although my .54 has .006" grooves.  A solution might be to use Hoppes #9 BP lube.  After your first shot with, say, mink oil, use Hoppes lube for all subsequent shots.  That way if you DON'T get a shot you won't have to worry about rust when you leave it loaded.  Hoppes is a fairly slick lube and doesn't dry out as quickly as many others out there.  A patch with Hoppes actually cleans the bore when the next load is seated.

[OldMtnMan]

I understand that, but Daryl's combo is .517. That would be a struggle to get down a squeaky clean bore.

[bgf]

I wipe between shots when shooting chunk, but only because I want every last bit of accuracy.  My offhand rifle will load for 20-30 shots without wiping, even using cooking oil for a patch lube (I don't use it anymore unless I need a non evaporating lube because it is more difficult to clean).  With the right ball and patch.  This assumes you load directly after shooting.  Letting fouling sit requires wiping before loading.

In my experience, difficulty loading is usually an indication that the load is very wrong or the barrel needs some attention, usually a little work with steel wool or a green scrub pad with or without polishing compound. 

[Hungry Horse]

There is a point of diminished returns on extremely tight patch/ball combinations. Once you get past what can be safely loaded with a hickory rod, the groups begin to open up. I suspect that there is so much stress put on the patching material during loading, that it begins to fail before it clears the barrel. Last months Muzzleblasts had a good article demonstrating this. The same article has good evidence that a fowling shot after cleaning the barrel is important as well.

  Hungry Horse

[bgf]

Hungry horse,
That article will be put on my list immediately for reading.  I have noticed that the "standard load" often recommended by barrel makers, e.g. .490 and .018 patch, will often shoot well enough and load easily through a woodswalk, though maybe not shoot quite as well as a tighter combination.  Whether the patch tears really depends more on the material than it's thickness.  And burning will soon follow tearing .

I have seen some recommendations for combinations like .490 and .010 -- those are guaranteed in my opinion to shoot badly and load hard unless the patch is exceptional and the lube pretty wet!  I think if I had a rifle with shallow rifling, I'd start with .490 and .018, or possibly 0.015 if really tough drill or linen, then try increasing patch thinness and ball size independently to find a good combination.

My inclination with hunting application would be to go with a thicker patch first...

[Hungry Horse]

I think another couple of things that are factors in this equation is sharp cut rifling can damage a tight combination, and deep rifling likewise can burn the patch up, due to poor sealing.
 My old CVA mountain rifle had button rifling of about eight thousandths and shot a .490 round ball with a fifteen thousandths patch all day without swabbing. It shot well enough to win many events, and brung home the bacon on more than a few hunts. My current rifle has a Montana cut rifled barrel with about twelve thousandths rifling. The tighter the balled is patched the worse it burns up, and the worse the gun shoots. A .490 ball and .015 ticking greased with venison tallow, and bear grease, shoots like a dream, and the patches are almost reusable. This barrel is 50 cal. And 1in 72" twist. I think rifling depth, and twist rate, along with the 80 plus grains of powder it takes to make this slow twist shoot, all play a part.

  Hungry Horse

[RichG]

best load so far is .445 ball, .020 ticking w/mink oil. 3/4" @ 50yds. one wet patch and two dry patches between shots. same load without cleaning is 2". This load with a .025 patch is almost impossible to start.  .440 ball with .025 patch is 1 1/2". tried my load I use in my Colrain round groove(.435 rb .015 ticking,mink oil)and the patches blew out.  I was hoping thick patch /small ball for easy loading. anyone try wiping the bore after loading? I read somewhere that some guns shoot better with grease free bore.

[Daryl]

No idea how you get a load that tight down the bore? I'd have to pound it down with a steel ramrod. Then after it was shot once it would be hopeless to get it down. A tight fit won't wipe away all the fouling and if it's almost impossible to load on a clean barrel. How can it get any better?

I was at the range one day (about 1976) and a fellow showed up and chastised me for telling him to use a .495" ball and .020" denim patch in his TC as he couldn't even start it.  I checked his rifle and it was the one I re-crowned for him - just as the picture above, using my pocket knife, then emery cloth from my possible's bag outside pocket(just for this use).

That day I was shooting my deep grooved Bauska .45 barrel, which had a .448" bore and .028" rifling depth per side.  that is .448" + .028 + .028 = .504 groove to groove.

I said, give me a ball and patch. He did, so I loaded it into my .45, using my normal short starter and 3/8" hickory rod. Mind, you, I did choke up on the rod and made short 4 to 6" pushes, but down it went and actually hit centre on my target- close as it was, only 50 yards.  I never shot closer, back then.

I told him with tight combinations, you have to want to make then go into the bore, to form into the rifling, or they will refuse.  You cannot limp wrist them into the bore.  Was shooting with a young fellow couple days ago, who was having a bit of trouble getting the patched balls into the bore of my Musketoon that I sold him. My .020" patches and .562" ball, into the .574" bore with .003" rifling at the muzzle (.011" at the breech). His trouble was due to being about 125 pounds and never having done ANY hard work in his life. He was just not strong enough.  I guess it happens, however, he did manage to get off over 20 shots.

Saying tight combinations do not clean is just wrong.  A tight combination like I used in the .50, a .495" and .020 to .022" patch (or any guns I still shoot) effectively cleans all of the fouling from the last shot as it is loaded. In the grooves, there is never more than 1 shot's fouling - there is no buildup - it cannot buildup as I push it down onto the powder as I load the next one.

saw a mistake - changed the .662" to a .562".  The .662" was a typo - sry- my mistake..

[hanshi]

I understand that, but Daryl's combo is .517. That would be a struggle to get down a squeaky clean bore.

How do you hold your mouth when you attempt to seat a tight load?  I always scrunch mine on one side with the other side relaxed; seems to help. 
 

[OldMtnMan]

I didn't say that Daryl. I said if it's really hard to get the PRB down a squeaky clean bore. No patch combo can clean better than that.

 As an ex-power lifter. I'm not limp wristed.

[OldMtnMan]

I understand that, but Daryl's combo is .517. That would be a struggle to get down a squeaky clean bore.

How do you hold your mouth when you attempt to seat a tight load?  I always scrunch mine on one side with the other side relaxed; seems to help. 
 

That must be the answer. I usually scrunch both sides.

[Scota4570]

NMLRA Rules

1110–SWABBING BETWEEN SHOTS–Swabbing between shots with a damp patch to eliminate the possibility
of glowing embers igniting the next powder charge is strongly recommended.

The place I shoot replaces "strongly reccomended" with "mandatory". They are serious about it too. 

I do not agree from a safety standpoint.  From a standpoint of maintaining uniform bore conditins, it does give best accuracy. 

I you keep a slotted jag on the rod, with a damp patch, it only takes a few sconds to swab it.  No big deal.  I am surprized that more clubs don't require it. 

[Daryl]

We built our black powder range in the very early 80's.  Now, after 35 years of shooting and well over 100,000 shots fired down range with NO one wiping between shots, we have not had an accidental discharge from burning embers int eh breech.

I did, however see that happen at a shoot in the lower mainland back in the mid 70's. My friend used very thin patches judging by what I used, and the powder went off as he started to shove the ball down.  It didn't ring the bore, but did burn his hand from the flame. That is the only 'accident' I have witnessed, however have seen others send burning patches downrange (Hefley Creek) due to thin-patch loads.

That does not happen here, as we all use snug loads that cannot catch fire, due to the seal created.

We maintain if your patches are not reusable for at least a couple more shots, they are not thick enough.

[Daryl]

I didn't say that Daryl. I said if it's really hard to get the PRB down a squeaky clean bore. No patch combo can clean better than that.

 As an ex-power lifter. I'm not limp wristed.

Sry- loads in a clean bore just as easily as in one that has been fired. I have noticed, that when using mink oil or Neetsfoot oil in a clean bore that was oiled with WD40, that the first load is 'stickier' to shove down, than the 50th.  It still goes down easily, however not as easy as subsequent loads.  I suspect this is due to residual 'WD40' in the bore not being compatible the other oil.  After the first shot, it's fine. This happened only in my .32, though, and might have been a combination of narrow grooves, wide lands, .0235" patch and .311" ball in .008"rifling.  After that first load and shot, loading was with 2 fingers on the rod after starting the ball 5" down with the short starter.

My current wide groove Rice .36 cal. barrel on that rifle does not need a short starter at all. Choked up rod can start a .350" ball with a .022" patch.  Due to the narrow lands the ball just forms into the bore very easily with the 5/16" hickory, & down she goes. Incredibly easy so I might try some of the .030" patches just because.

I think we need to do another loading video, perhaps with this .36 just to show how easy it is to load that combination.  With its .008" rifling & true .360" bore, the groove to groove diameter is .376". My combination with compressed patches noted is .390".  That's .014 oversize to the groove diameter, divided by 2 = .007" extra compression of ball and patch in the bottom of each groove and .015" compression on the top of each land.

Sounds tight - but due to the tiny ball being easily formed it is really easy to load.

[OldMtnMan]

Ok, i'll do some experimenting. I'd love to see a video of the .495 .022 patch load.

[Daryl]

I don't have that barrel any more, OldMtnMan - however when Taylor gets the mould in for his 16 bore Lang rifle & casts some balls, we'll be heading out to shoot it.

At that time, we should be able to do a video of loading a .682" ball with a .034" patch in my .69 cal. rifle.  I ran out of 30 thou. (12 ounce denim) patches, but a friend gave me some 14 ounce denim.
I have already showed, many times, loading a .0225" denim patch with a .445" ball in a .45 - loads slick as can be.

The video I wanted is now corrupted in Photobucket.

Here is my bro, Taylor, loading his .50, with a .495" ball and .020" denim patch.  He uses a range rod, at the range.  On the trail or at rendezvous, he uses nothing  but the rifle's tapered hickory rod. 



Only .0015" compression each groove due to the .016" deep rifling.  Note with 100gr. of powder, this ball and patch combination fails- burns up due to blowby caused by the higher pressure and insufficient seal.  At 85gr. of 2f, these patches show scorch marks, but still shoots well and does not need any wiping during a day's shooting.

Here is loading a .58 Kodiak with .008" rifling using a .562" ball and .0215" patches. This is quite a bit thinner than normally used by me - only .005" compression (oversize) in each groove, but it shoots well and never needs cleaning while shooting, right up to it's perfect regulation load (shoots parallel) of 110gr. 2F.  My normal load in this rifle is 100gr. of 2f GOERX with the .0215" or .0225" patches. With this load, it shoots into the same group at 50 yards, ie: 1" c to c for 6 shots- 3 from each barrel.  Due to shooting to the sights (1 set), the tubes are actually crossing, but the cross is only 1" at 100 yards, so still useable for hunting or target shooting.  with 82gr. of 2f, the barrels shoot 3" apart in elevation and 2 1/2" crossing - useless for anything.



SRY - sounds condescending, was not meant to be.

 

[Sharpsman]

Daryl

"SRY - sounds condescending, was not meant to be."

I've learned quite a bit over the years from 'condescending folks'!

[thecapgunkid]

Hanshi..."All I can say is that it works for me;"...

He's right. All I've ever used is out-of-bottle cleaner that I soak my loading block with.  Every barrel I have ever had fouled at the breesh and I have always swabbed after every  fifth shot.  I dunno why, don't care why, but it works for me...