Heavy shot loads in fowlers

[goodtime7]

Just wondering the about the use of heavy shot charges in fowlers vs similar loads in modern shotguns    For example 1.5-2.0 0z in 20 gauge fowlers intended for turkey hunting.   Don't know of any modern guns that would tolerate this...assuming you could stuff that amount of shot in a shot shell.   Is it the pressure curves associated with black powder, or greater barrel thickness?   Having saig that I have a modern SxS 10 ga by Pedersoli that has a max shot load of 1 1/4 oz stamped on the barrel.  Interested in your thoughts.    Thanks a bunch.    Bruce

[Joe S]

I doubt anybody really knows what the pressures are for those really heavy loads.  People stuff a lot of shot down the barrel, and the barrels don’t blow up.  At least under favorable circumstances, anyway. That’s about all we know.

Pressures in a black powder shotgun have to be very similar to the pressure in a modern shotgun because you get similar velocities with similar shot loads.  SAMMI lists pressures as 11,000 to 14,000 psi.  I’ve seen estimates for black powder in those ranges.

There are a lot of good reasons for sticking pretty close to traditional shot and powder charges.  Safety is only one of them.

[Daryl]

I have a 20 bore. The heavies shot charges I have used, are 1 1/8oz.  If I need to shoot 1 1/4oz. I will buy or build a 16 bore - that is a hevy load for a 16.  If I need 1 3/8oz. It will be a 12 bore bore? My 3 1/2" modern 12 bore mangulthem will handle 2oz.

[moleeyes36]

Some people use equal by volume shot and powder for a shotgun.  Anybody know offhand how many grains by volume of powder equal the volume of 1 1/8 oz of shot?

Mole Eyes

[Mike Brooks]

Personally, I wouldn't feed any percussion guns really big loads. Flint guns on the other hand have a vent hole to release some of the pressure. Also when I have suggested big loads in the past these loads were intended for flint guns with large breeches, and well made stocks where the breeches are fitted well to the wood and the grain in the wrist is excellent. I suppose 20 bores ought to have at least 1 1/8" breech and 12 and 10 bores ought to go at least 1 1/4" or more.
 2 oz is probably too much for a 20 bore, it probably wouldn't be any more effective than 1 5/8oz or 1 1/2oz. The pattern board would tell the truth. A 16 bore or a 14 bore could probably handle up to 1 3/4oz, maybe 1 7/8os , 12 bores should handle 2oz - 2 1/4. 11 and 10 bores should handle up to 2 5/8. Most all of this info comes from a good customer of mine that was an avid turkey hunter who hunted in eight states every year. His 10 bore loads were used in a flint gun with a 50" barrel, lots of jug, 140gr 2ff and buffered nickle plated shot. His results were quite impressive. I probably built him six or seven turkey guns over the years. I did some preliminary patterning per his advice before I shipped most of them. His loads would definitely get your attention. One 20 bore I built him put all of the 1 1/4oz load of #4's in an 18" circle @ 25 yards. The recoil on that particular gun wasn't bad at all.
 Anything over 1 5/8oz will create some noticeable recoil,  the biggest loads will really snap your head back, that's why I suggest well made guns with excellent grain flow and big barrels. Most of the big turkey guns I have built weigh in the 8-9 1/2lbs range due mostly to the weight of the barrel due to the size of the breech. A buttplate at least 2" wide and 5"-5 1/2" tall is helpfull too.
 If you're scared of the bigger loads try 1F, it gives a little softer punch on the butt end.
 Let me add, for most applications I wouldn't recommend these large loads, they have a specific purpose. They are for guns with alot of jug choke and killing turks at long distance. I imagine they would be quite effective on wildfowl as well.
 For upland hunting I'd use a gun with light jug and would load a "normal" size load. I hunted with a 12 bore flint for years loaded with 1 1/8oz for pheasants over dogs. Might have bumped that load up a bit with out dogs. I had a SXS 18 bore that I loaded 1 oz in. Got a couple pheasants with that load and discovered the gun shot 7/8oz just as well and was easier on me and the old gun, in fact I shot quite a few birds with 3/4oz. That gun would turn skeet to dust with 5/8oz loads. So, big loads aren't always needed to get the job done.

[goodtime7]

Thanks for all the thoughts and ideas.   Mike, thanks for sharing your experience in detail.   I have a better sense of how I want to plan my next fowler.   Bruce

[Daryl]

Mole Eyes 1 - dram = 27.3gr.
Below - measures actually holding the gr. weight indicated - not some commercial outfit's idea of stricken measure

50gr. measure---------------3.4oz shot-----------------------------drams
55gr. measure--------------------------------------------------2------drams  54.6gr.
60gr. measure---------------7/8oz shot---------------------------- drams
62gr. measure--------------------------------------------------2 1/4-drams  61.4gr.
68gr. measure--------------------------------------------------2 1/2-drams  68.3gr.
70gr. measure---------------1---oz shot-----------------------------drams
75gr. measure--------------------------------------------------2 3/4-drams   
80gr. measure---------------1 1/8oz shot---------------------------drams
82gr. measure--------------------------------------------------3------drams   
89gr. measure--------------------------------------------------3 1/4-drams   
90gr. measure---------------1 1/4oz. shot--------------------------drams
96gr. measure--------------------------------------------------3 1/2-drams   
100--measure---------------1 3/8oz shot---------------------------drams
102--measure--------------------------------------------------3 3/4-drams
109--measure--------------------------------------------------4------drams   
110--measure---------------1 1/2oz shot---------------------------drams
120--measure---------------1 5/8oz shot-------------------4 2/5 -drams(likely)

[JCKelly]

Apocryphal rhyme

Less powder, more lead, shoots far, kills dead.

More powder, less lead, kicks hard, wide spread.

These things are muzzle loading guns

[Mauser06]

I've fired some 100gr of 3f and 2oz of shot loads from mine....didn't blow up. But don't know if it was safe....


That's one thing about muzzleloaders.  There's no way to check the pressure. That I know of anyways. 



Still shooting 80gr of 2f and 120gr of shot as my current turkey load.


Like was said, for my purpose I wanted a turkey pattern.   This far, that was the load that produced it. I've fired countless out of it since having it jugged.   


I don't know that there has ever been a documented barrel explosion from too much powder or too heavy a projectile in a flintlock...??  I really don't know. I've never heard of one.  Those that have happened fail at dovetails and are almost always associated with a barrel obstruction, projectile not seated, or "!the wrong" powder being used... sometimes the load that blows the barrel is black powder but the gun previous was fired with the wrong powder..


I wouldn't go stupid heavy.....like 4oz or anything just crazy.   

Black powder burns different as well.... especially 2f IMO. 

Guys load lead conicals weighing 400+gr in a 50cal plains rifle double the weight of a round ball.   Is that safe???    Same concept...


Truth is, it's a guessing game.  Don't do anything crazy and crazy things aren't as likely to happen. 


There also can be a difference in Fowler barrels.  I've seen some with pretty thin walls that I wouldn't dare some of the stuff I've fired. 

Colerain lists a 100gr charge with 2oz of shot on their turkey barrel page.  I figured if they published it on their site that they didn't feel it was dangerous....

[Hungry Horse]

You want to push the shot column out the bore on a fowler, not blow it out. So unless you are shooting a very small gauge fowler, avoid 3F powder. Slower burning powder isn't as bad to drive the wad through the pattern either. When I started shooting years ago,  many shotgunners shot large charges of  1F in both percussion shotguns, and flint muskets, and fowlers, with good success.

  Hungry Horse

[bob in the woods]

Patterns tell the truth.  I would rather shoot a larger bore than push the smaller one with more shot.   I do shoot 2 oz loads in my 10 bore , along with 2 F powder.  The other consideration is the shot string, which I assume is much longer with the smaller bores and heavy loads  I found that even a 1 1/4 oz shot load in a 10 bore is better than the same load in a 20 when hunting fowl.

[Mauser06]

Hungry horse, I was surprised at the difference after I went to 2f.  The tapered choke didn't mind 3f.  Jug choke it made a huge difference. 


Bob brings up another important point about the shot string.  A stationary target...a turkey...doesn't matter much.  A flying bird and it does. That's where bigger bores are probably better.   



I'm still hunting for the best turkey setup for whenever I get ready to build my own turkey gun. Probably going to stick to a smooth rifle-ish layout just because it's going to be mostly a dedicated turkey thumper. 

I want a better pattern than my 20 is throwing now....and don't care much on shooting round balls. Going to do a lot of research before deciding on the barrel and choke design. The taper choke threw a much better pattern...but loading and especially cleaning was just irritating.

[Mike Brooks]

Patterns tell the truth.  I would rather shoot a larger bore than push the smaller one with more shot.   I do shoot 2 oz loads in my 10 bore , along with 2 F powder.  The other consideration is the shot string, which I assume is much longer with the smaller bores and heavy loads  I found that even a 1 1/4 oz shot load in a 10 bore is better than the same load in a 20 when hunting fowl.

I can put alot of shot an a pattern board with a 28 bore gun, I have found them all to shoot very tight. But, as Bob says it is difficult to hit anything flying with them . I also believe it is because these small bores shoot "string" patterns  instead of "ball " patterns.

[moleeyes36]

Thanks, Daryl, I'm going to save that chart for future reference.

Mole Eyes

[Daryl]

Welcome- the reason I typed it out.  I did the same here or elsewhere, a long time ago and tape it to the wall in the shop.

[Jerry V Lape]

The pressure curves for smokeless powder and blackpowder in cartridge shotguns are almost identical. The smokeless does have a very short duration sharp spike early in the burn which the black powder doesn't.  There is no reason they don't react similarly in a muzzleloader with the exception a flintlock might bleed off some of the pressure via the vent.   I personally think it foolishness to put a 10ga magnum load of shot in a 20ga gun.  Aside from the pressures generated there is a very poor pattern developed.  The shot string will be extremely long and the velocity will be much slower than optimum.  There is actually a benefit in short shot string patterns with respect to impact on the target.  Twenty guage guns shooting 7/8 to 1 oz loads are both traditional and well founded.  They will certainly kill turkey at muzzleloader ranges.  Remember when you are lookn
ing at a shot pattern on paper or other pattern board that you are looking at a two dimensional image or a three dimensional object.  The shots travels in an oblong string.  Short strings tend to fly together and arrive at the same time.  Long strings are not as predictable.  You are unlikely to be driving the shot at the 1200fps range which means penetration will not be optimal either.  Pressures can be measured with stress gauges just as for modern guns if you really want to know the truth of your loads. 

[Mike Brooks]

The pressure curves for smokeless powder and blackpowder in cartridge shotguns are almost identical. The smokeless does have a very short duration sharp spike early in the burn which the black powder doesn't.  There is no reason they don't react similarly in a muzzleloader with the exception a flintlock might bleed off some of the pressure via the vent.   I personally think it foolishness to put a 10ga magnum load of shot in a 20ga gun.  Aside from the pressures generated there is a very poor pattern developed.  The shot string will be extremely long and the velocity will be much slower than optimum.  There is actually a benefit in short shot string patterns with respect to impact on the target.  Twenty guage guns shooting 7/8 to 1 oz loads are both traditional and well founded.  They will certainly kill turkey at muzzleloader ranges.  Remember when you are lookn
ing at a shot pattern on paper or other pattern board that you are looking at a two dimensional image or a three dimensional object.  The shots travels in an oblong string.  Short strings tend to fly together and arrive at the same time.  Long strings are not as predictable.  You are unlikely to be driving the shot at the 1200fps range which means penetration will not be optimal either.  Pressures can be measured with stress gauges just as for modern guns if you really want to know the truth of your loads.

For the most part I completely agree. These larger loads create a long shot column as it flies through the air. That is only usefull for things that are sitting still. To keep your velocity up you have to keep your powder load up as well.  Your cards and wads have to fit tight as well. You need some intensive pattern board work to tune these big loads.
 For shooting on the wing a "square load" , or nearly so, is what I use.
  In the end, I suggest if you have a load that you're happy with now, stick with it.

[Scota4570]

I would not try to shoot more HS than fits in the shot cup.  IT is super hard and will damage the bore. 

Look into Tungsten Super Shot (TSS).  IT can be up to 18 G/CC.  It will shoot way out there with smaller payloads of smaller  shot sizes.  #7 will perform more like #4 lead.   You don't need much #7 to get the pattern density required.  Pellet density is the most important thing for shot performance.  Being much denser than lead or HS, you can fit about an ounce and a quarter in the volume normally taken up by an ounce.  A few years back guys were shooting 3/4 oz of #8 and hammering the ducks. 

Beware, the cost of the stuff is obscene. 

Maybe we can find a source of DU shot??   

[jim meili]

Great info on this thread...for the most part I don't care how much shot goes around the target but what hits it. I have a nice 28 gauge fowler that I thought would tally more targets with more shot and powder. Not so, was using 70 grains 2F and just over an oz. of shot and found a big hole in the center of the pattern. Switched to 55 grains 2F and 3/4 oz. shot and what a difference on the patterning board. When on a flying target if you're on it, you're on it and it's a dead target. There's a reason they make wad sizes as they do in modern guns. Dropping back to 3/4 oz. loads in my Baltimore Arms Company 12 gauge has improved my skeet scores. As for turkey hunting I can't comment, have never done it but do realize a turkey is a hard critter to kill.

[Waksupi]

At one shoot, there was a paper target of a turkey head, most pellets in the head won. I loaded up around 3 oz. of shot, over twenty grains of powder. I won! 

By the way, turkeys aren't that hard to kill. I single pellet in the head will do it. 

[John SMOthermon]

I've shot 2 oz. of BBs out of my 16 gauge over 70 grns fg without any issues. The Fg powder creates even less pressure and the shot seems to string out. 7 BBs through a metal tuna can at 25 yards = Dead bird in my neighborhood. Too bad BBs aren't legal to hunt turkey with where I live.

[Mike Brooks]

You guys can load any way you like, but I'd be interested in a bit more velocity....

[Joe S]

Mike

Have you ever chronographed your shot loads?

[Mike Brooks]

Mike

Have you ever chronographed your shot loads?

Don't own one. But I can tell you from experience those last two loads Are pretty light on the powder end.

[Joe S]

I have one.  It doesn't work anymore.



When I want to estimate velocities for my fowlers, I just use the velocities published for modern shot shells.  They give you shot weight and dram equivalent, so I figure that's close enough.  My loads are pretty conservative compared to what some folks are doing these days.  They seem to work just fine though.