Author Topic: tradegun front sight and lugs. (Read 7599 times)

jerrywh · « **on:** June 13, 2017, 05:43:15 PM »

Here is a thought for you guys. Many Indian trade guns had bright blued barrels. They came that way from the gun makers in England and were preferred by the natives of of the new world and later America. This blue color. described a bright blue was done at a temperature of about 650°F over a charcoal brazier. If the sights and lugs were soldered on with soft solder they would fall off or be dislocated during this process unless they were held in place some how. The other option would be to braze them on at high temp with silver solder or a brass alloy. This would potentially warp the barrel. Opinions and suggestions please.

Eric Kettenburg · « **Reply #1 on:** June 13, 2017, 06:10:07 PM »

Why wouldn't they have been brazed or silver-soldered on first? Barrel could be sold as a complete unit. Not really any big deal to inlet the barrel with lugs on it already, so that wouldn't have been a problem.

Think of it this way too: nowadays, most of us inlet the barrel, then inlet the tang, then shape the wrist and lock region before finish polishing the barrel or whatever. This typically involves filing the tang once already in the wood. But if the barrels were breached and being sold already blued, the tang would likewise be finished as well and so the wrist and lock region shaping would need be accomplished with more precise chisel work as opposed to more reliance upon rasps and files.

For all we know the vents were already drilled as well, which would explain the variety of fence locations (relative to the rear of the barrel) dependent upon the type of lock used.

Just some random thoughts.

FlintFan · « **Reply #2 on:** June 13, 2017, 06:20:57 PM »

Haven't studied how original trade gun sights/lugs were put on, but Land pattern musket lugs were brass brazed. Granted they were not blued, but it does give evidence of brazing. Those barrels get quite thin towards the muzzles. If the barrel warped, it would have been a common task to straighten them considering they were made in the large barrel factories of England, with all the access to skilled barrel makers that that implies.

Straightening was probably a usual operation carried out around the time of barrel inspection and proof. I don't have specific documentation in front of me at the moment to confirm that for certain. I could maybe start by reviewing text by Bailey or Greener to find specifics about barrel making procedures in the 18th-19th centuries.

James Rogers · « **Reply #3 on:** June 13, 2017, 07:49:33 PM »

The evidence I have seen for English birding pieces shows VERY light dovetails to hold in place and brazed.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #4 on:** June 13, 2017, 10:06:59 PM »

Quote from: James Rogers on June 13, 2017, 07:49:33 PM

The evidence I have seen for English birding pieces shows VERY light dovetails to hold in place and brazed.

Ditto

jerrywh · « **Reply #5 on:** June 13, 2017, 10:10:53 PM »

I am getting some good input here. Does anyone here have an original musket? They probably did it the same way on muskets. Either French or English should be the same.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #6 on:** June 13, 2017, 11:11:11 PM »

I have a Potzdamit Rev war era barrel with brazed lugs. I assume the front sight blob is brazed as well.

Levy · « **Reply #7 on:** June 14, 2017, 02:48:31 AM »

The most complete Type G (Carolina Gun) that I got to work on before I retired was found in the Suwannee River in 2005. It was signed on the lock, Williams (pre- 1745). The sights and the underlugs were lightly dovetailed into the barrel. the sights were both brass and the underlugs were iron.
James Levy

rich pierce · « **Reply #8 on:** June 14, 2017, 03:16:31 AM »

Just checked an original round "trade"gun barrel. It has LONDON on the top and some cheesy looking proof marks. Probably not London. All lugs were dovetailed originally. No front sight. Along the way it got percussed and possibly was a half stock but no evidence of a rib. At some point the more forward dovetails had solder in them.

jerrywh · « **Reply #9 on:** June 14, 2017, 03:31:37 AM »

Thanks a lot guys. Your more help than you might know. The lugs don't worry me at all. I might just silver solder the front sight on with high temp.

davec2 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 14, 2017, 04:58:41 AM »

Jerry,

There are some good silver braze alloys that are between 850 and 1100 degrees F.....lower than standard higher temp silver solder but higher than your heat blue temperature. This one melts at 1145 F. I will try to find the few I have seen at 850 to 950 F

https://www.riogrande.com/Product/Silver-Paste-Solder-Syringe-560-Extra-Easy/103101

jerrywh · « **Reply #11 on:** June 14, 2017, 06:48:05 PM »

Dave.
I have that silver solder and have used it for years. It is real good stuff and I use it with batterns flux at times in the shim form as well.
The one thing that concerns me is the heat might choke the bore some at the muzzle. As long as it was concentric I guess it wouldn't matter but the heat will have to be applied equally to that barrel section to prevent a one way warp. Another option is to soft solder the front sight with a standard lead tin solder and then hold it in place while the barrel is heat blued with a fixture. I have a good system for that. Being a trade gun it does not demand perfection but I always try for a perfect job just to keep in practice for the good stuff. Working out these problems is the only thing that keeps me from boredom anymore. The bottom lugs ? I think I will install them on the Davec2 method. You did a great tutorial on that method a year or two ago. Inlet them and lock them in. A lot of lugs on European guns that appear to be brazed on are probably done the way you described in stead.

gunlock · « **Reply #12 on:** June 15, 2017, 02:52:21 AM »

I remember reading some where that a iron rod was heated to a high temp and inserted into the barrel and it would heat the barrel from the inside and produce the desired temper blue color. The sights and lugs, if soldered on could be held in place with wire during the process. If the desired color was not achieved with the first heating the rod could be reheated or maybe several rods could be used. Seems like it might work with the thin barrels on a Carolina Gun. As the breech is thicker than the muzzle don't know how even the color would be. Might try it on my copy of the Bumford Gun.

Buffaload · « **Reply #13 on:** June 16, 2017, 03:30:58 AM »

Maybe we saw the same information but I seem to remember a fellow who is known for building very large bore double guns-like 8 to 4 guage, used this same technique of heating rods and inserting them into the barrels to get the ribs sweat on the barrels. He may have been brazed at the breech and muzzle along with spacers. It makes a lot of sense doing it this was way to prevent warping a tube. I am sorry I cant remember his name so i could give him credit, he was a fine smith.
Ed

Majorjoel · « **Reply #14 on:** June 16, 2017, 10:37:19 AM »

Jerry, please excuse the poor picture quality but here is an original front sight on a London made trade gun barrel. It is made of silver and has four what I call "legs" that were inlet into the barrel and finished flush.

Not sure if the sight was brazed or just held in place by it's inletting.

This type of sight would be right up your alley of expertise!

Majorjoel · « **Reply #15 on:** June 16, 2017, 10:45:23 AM »

James Rogers · « **Reply #16 on:** June 16, 2017, 05:53:18 PM »

I call those spider sights : )
They show up a lot. I have yet to try one but i do intend to do so at aome point.

That's a Birmingham made gun.

jerrywh · « **Reply #17 on:** June 16, 2017, 06:26:04 PM »

James.
Thanks for the photos . They are great. Almost all the trade guns were made in Birmingham according to the books.
One ting for sure is that one is not coming out. I am looking at a lot of original NW guns on the internet and it seems as though they differ a lot in the front sight type. Some are dovetailed and some are just inlet into the barrel and brazed. I suspect some were installed by the barrel makers and others were installed by the gun makers. So far I have not seen a tear shaped front sight on one like some say.

rich pierce · « **Reply #18 on:** June 16, 2017, 06:38:11 PM »

Jerry, any chance those spider sights are locked in like barrel band inlays?

jerrywh · « **Reply #19 on:** June 16, 2017, 07:34:32 PM »

Rich.
I would say that one is. It is hard to do with brass but it can be done. I can do it with iron. I do repairs with iron inlays a lot.

Majorjoel · « **Reply #20 on:** June 16, 2017, 09:30:03 PM »

Just a couple more pictures of another English trade gun for you Jerry. This one is much later than the first one with a flintlock and barrel dated 1870 and made for the Hudson Bay Company.

The only pic I have remaining of the front sight is just a profile shot and know it was also a silver sight.

This will give you a basic idea of how far from the muzzle some of those sights were placed.

This was quite a rare piece, made with a 30" barrel in 24 gauge.

Majorjoel · « **Reply #21 on:** June 16, 2017, 09:33:45 PM »

Another very interesting feature with this 1870 model is that it was made with a rear sight. This sight was "crimped" or chiseled into the barrel from the barrel metal itself.

jerrywh · « **Reply #22 on:** June 16, 2017, 09:55:31 PM »

Joel.
I can't tell you how much I appreciate those photos. Those guns in that condition are extremely rare. I'm saving every one. Thanks for all. This is great stuff.

James Rogers · « **Reply #23 on:** June 17, 2017, 02:54:10 AM »

Quote from: rich pierce on June 16, 2017, 06:38:11 PM

Jerry, any chance those spider sights are locked in like barrel band inlays?

Rich,
I have seen one where someone pulled out the silver. It was undercut and put in like bands or plates.

James Rogers · « **Reply #24 on:** June 17, 2017, 03:00:52 AM »

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Author Topic: tradegun front sight and lugs. (Read 7599 times)

gunlock