Early 1803 on an auction site with odd lock manufacturing methods

[Mattox Forge]

This 1803 is up for sale on an auction site and it has some unusual looking parts on it. The parts appear to be cast, but also appear to be old. No mention in the description of a restoration, or recoversion from percussion.

Overall gun


The lock


casting mold parting lines on the frizzen spring?


Parting lines on the top jaw as well?


Hammer parting lines?


The parts look old for the most part. My question is if Harpers Ferry used castings in the original production of these locks. I have never heard of the use of cast lock components.

Thanks

Mike

[120RIR]

I've learned to see what I see and not what I want to see.  Those sure look like mold lines and at least some of "rust" appears to be artificially induced.  I'd be willing to bet a reconversion but others with far more experience will hopefully weigh in as well.  I didn't have the patience to sit through the entire largely superfluous description on Gun Broker but did the seller ever mention a serial number stamped on the barrel?  Looks pretty fishy to me.

[Hungry Horse]

 I agree that it looks like a reconversion. It's a shame that with a little more attention to details it would have been pretty hard to detect.

  Hungry Horse

[Mattox Forge]

No mention of a reconversion, or the serial number in the description. The main spring looks new as well. I was afraid that reconversion was the case. The aging was done pretty well and matches the lock, which appears to be original. The frizzen not so much. If the filing had been done properly on the new parts, the reconverstion would be hard to spot. It ought to be mentioned in the description if known.

Mike

[JCKelly]

No one could cast any parts out of steel until the 20th century   Any US musket used forged wrought iron parts. Some malleable iron was used for stock tips/forend caps

Lost Wax Casting, a.k.a. Investment Casting was used only for jewelry for a few thousand years.
It became used for serious military items during WWII 

It is the process by which modern replica muzzle loading lock parts have been made for roughly the last half century.

Yup, they is modern parts on this gun.

[Bill Weedman]

Casting is an old process. Cannons have been cast for at least 300 years. You begin to see a considerable of cast iron goods starting in the late 18th century. Cast iron cook pots and stoves are an example.

[Shreckmeister]

No one could cast any parts out of steel until the 20th century   Any US musket used forged wrought iron parts. Some malleable iron was used for stock tips/forend caps

Lost Wax Casting, a.k.a. Investment Casting was used only for jewelry for a few thousand years.
It became used for serious military items during WWII 

It is the process by which modern replica muzzle loading lock parts have been made for roughly the last half century.

Yup, they is modern parts on this gun.

    Is the "Cast Steel" stamping on many 19th Century NY muzzleloaders a misnomer?

[Hungry Horse]

Cast steel, and wart steel,  is seen stamped on late 19th century gun barrels. They were cast steel. But, not investment cast, which was known, but reserved at that time for the casting of jewelry, and other smallish items, primarily in precious metals.

  Hungry Horse

[Jay Close]

At least as the English steel trades used the term starting in the 18th c. "cast steel" referred to a steel making process. Low grade "blister steel" made through cementation (basically prolonged case hardening) was melted in a crucible. This evened the carbon distribution and allowed the slag to be skimmed off. The molten material was cast into ingots which, from then on, were worked mechanically (hammers, rollers, presses). 

So, "cast steel" gun barrels were made of cast steel, but not by casting steel.

I seem to recall that a watch or clock maker came up with the process to make cast steel as an improvement on the material for springs. He tried to keep it a trade secret, but word got out and it spawned a huge industry. Even into the early 20th c. quality woodworking tools were made of cast steel and so marked. Often they were mostly wrought iron with a cast steel cutting edge welded in.

[g2608671@verizon.net]

The metal parts do not appear to have any wear on them or dings from normal use.  Although they do show signs of "rust" and this too is so even that it makes me wonder about its authenticity. Even if the metal has been sand blasted to get rid of the rust it still shows no signs of wear or what I consider to be normal bangs and dings from usage. Stock looks pretty good though - from what I can see.

[JCKelly]

Jay Close has it absolutely right.

The watchmaker was named Huntsman, story goes he needed a more uniform steel for watch springs. He worked in Sheffield, learnt from their potters how to get the high temperature needed to melt steel.
Cast iron melts a few hundred degrees lower than does steel.

Anyway this gun has modern cast steel lock parts on it.

[Mattox Forge]

...
Anyway this gun has modern cast steel lock parts on it.

Thanks, that is what I thought as well. I asked the vendor about it (It has been relisted at least once since I posted this), and he did not acknowledge the modern replacements at all. The description hasn't changed either to note what I think is a reconversion to flint.

I think that I would have left that particular lock in its converted state if I had it.

Mike

[Three Steps]

The aging looks like it was done with Clorox bleach. I have done that on several parts trying to match them up and it does not really look like natural aging to me. The pitting just looks different. Steel can be immersed in very hot Clorox and it will look like that in 10 minutes or so. It also produces very toxic fumes. Note that the lock plate matches the cast hammer with the pitting.

[Mattox Forge]

With that observation, do you think that the plate could be a modern part as well? The sear spring is certainly a modern stamped one.

 

The aging looks like it was done with Clorox bleach. I have done that on several parts trying to match them up and it does not really look like natural aging to me. The pitting just looks different. Steel can be immersed in very hot Clorox and it will look like that in 10 minutes or so. It also produces very toxic fumes. Note that the lock plate matches the cast hammer with the pitting.

[Don Stith]

Might as well throw a little more cold water on this piece. The shape of the lock plate,the patch box and trigger guard and probably the barrel are consistent with the 1815 to 1819 vintage model 1803

[Longknife]

QUOTE from sellers description,,,,,"The interior surface of the lock has what appears to be a “D” in a circle to the left of a Roman Numeral “I.” Both of these stamps are just below the integral pan." ...."D" in a circle is the standard Davis lock markings,,,,Ed

[Eric Kettenburg]

Just a quick note if I may interject:  obviously the lock is a hack job here.  Aside from this, on the issue of castings:  I had an Irish fowler a number of years ago which needed some very slight repair, signed by 'Murphy' and with a mid 1830s date on it (wrist escutcheon), and that sucker was mounted in iron/steel with cast components (buttplate, guard).  Very definitely cast, no question about it, and the entire piece was certainly original and untouched.  Don't know if this means anything but in the discussion of cast iron or steel parts, thought I'd mention it.  BTW, the lock was definitely not cast - spectacular lock of the period and assembled with a great deal of care.  Anyway.

[JCKelly]

Eric K I did not quite follow what parts were cast in iron/steel/whatever

There is a material called "malleable iron", developed by a Frenchman late 18th century. He wanted to compete with fancy wrought iron gates & fences, which required a lot of labor to make. Common grey iron is wonderful for pots and pans, but too brittle to use as fencing.
Malleable cast iron starts out as "white iron", slightly lower in carbon than gray iron, mainly it is cooled fairly quickly in the mold. Comes out of the mold hard and brittle. Then after annealing about a day at bright red (1750F) it becomes soft with enough ductility to end it a bit. Allen pepperbox frames were all malleable iron, as were the little metal stock tips on Civil War muskets. And the "iron mounted' London Colts all used malleable iron trigger guards & grip frames.
A few decades back Dixie sold malleable iron reconversion parts, and set triggers. No, I would not recommend a malleable iron hammer.