Committee of Safety muskets

[Hungry Horse]

Why is it that you rarely see replicas of Committee of Safety muskets with French locks, and, or, furniture? After all, when we, as a nation decided to build our own military musket, we copied the French musket, not the British. And, the French gave use literally boat loads of musket parts, while British parts had to come through capture.

  Hungry Horse

[Glenn]

Good question.  I wonder how many of the originals actually still exist?

[rich pierce]

So there are at least 2 working definitions of Committee of Safety muskets. One is rigorous:  guns built to spec here for the Revolutionary War and so marked. The other encompasses muskets that are often composite guns using old parts, likely used by militia, but not made to pattern using standard parts and not marked or stamped in a way that would link them to a colony or state.

There are a number of New England muskets with French locks and sometimes side plates, etc.

[conquerordie]

Their out there, but if the French influx of muskets started in the Spring of 1777 , more complete muskets were available and sent to the field. The need for COS muskets might not have been so important. Just a thought.
Greg

[Elnathan]

Going on memory here:

Committee of Safety muskets were ordered at the beginning of hostilities. At that time the British Land Pattern was the model that most folks in the colonies were familiar with, and the specs given for the gunsmiths to follow reflected that.

After the French sent us a bunch of slightly-used 1763s and 1766s, which were almost state-of-the-art at the time, the CoS muskets were no longer manufactured and were essentially second-line weapons (I don't know if they were actually withdrawn from service, though).

French muskets, being both plentiful and the most advanced weapon available to us, remained the standard issue weapon until we started manufacturing our own, somewhat ersatz, copy in '95.

As for American parts-built muskets in general, there are numerous examples with reused French parts. I believe that most of those parts are off of  pre-1763 models, though, which suggests to me that the government hung onto the 1763/66 parts to repair its inventory, and the civilian-made guns are made with older parts that were already floating around prior to and during the Revolution or that were surplused off during or after the war.

There is also at least one musket made from Brown Bess parts but stocked and altered to look like a 1763 French musket. Very interesting...

[Arcturus]

Committee of Safety muskets were ordered at the beginning of hostilities. At that time the British Land Pattern was the model that most folks in the colonies were familiar with, and the specs given for the gunsmiths to follow reflected that.

I agree.  We were British colonies, with British military pattern guns for our colonial militias prior to the Revolution, and the actual Committee of Safety guns (not to be confused with the many locally-produced militia guns cobbled together from different parts) were patterned after the British muskets. 

[HIB]

Hungry Horse:  While most of the previous posts provide an accurate account of history but they miss the most important part of your question.  "Why don't replicas of Committee of Safety muskets display French locks?" The key word is 'replica'.

Assuming you are referring to re-enactment replicas the answer is simple: No one in today's modern world has thought about it!!!

Having said that; the opportunity presents itself to the contemporary world of craftsmen. Examples exist of CoS muskets with French furniture as stated previously. Not certain of the demand but possibly one of the CLA artisans might make up a batch for sale to the numerous members of the re-enactment community.  Regards, HIB

[rich pierce]

HIB makes a great point.  Another reason may be that it's hard to find a good musket sized French lock, without going to The Rifle Shoppe.  There are more offerings of suitable large-ish English flintlocks suitable for muskets of the period.

[conquerordie]

I would add that time wise, COS muskets were a early war necessity. The colonists needed arms, and parts from all over were used to create theses muskets. So a standard French M1763/68 lock that we see on massed produced muskets wouldn't be correct for a gun made is 1775-1777. The locks existed, but they were not yet being shipped here.
They can be reworked to look more like a 1728/46/54 locks. But Rich is right, there's no good source but TRS, and they are not a reliable source right now. Kit Ravenshear altered a lot of these locks, and they looked great. Its the route I'd take. Plus a lot of reenactors are not well versed in guns used in the Revolution. They might not realize the correctness of the COS musket using French parts. I reenacted for 15 years, and saw so many militiamen running around with Charlevilles, drives me mad. They were used for Line regiments the official soldiers of the United States. Not given to militiamen so they could leave within a few weeks and go home. Not that soldiers didn't take them home with them.......now I'm rambling.

Greg

[Treebeard]

They did not have the French type locks but I met a man from southwest Virginia at the Oct. 2016 Ft. Loudon trade faire that made repro COS muskets. They all had what looked like Colerain barrels that TOW sells for their Long Land kits. I was impressed with their quality but loss his card so do not have his name. He had 4 or 5 marked for different colonies.

[Elnathan]

Anyone have an original example of a CoS musket with French parts?There are only about a dozen Committee of Safety muskets as per this article: http://thayeramericana.com/back/research/research7.pdf

Note that the French-based US-manufactured muskets pictured therein are NOT CoS muskets, but another category of Rev-War muskets.

Honestly, I seldom see a replica musket that isn't made in a factory overseas. Any custom-made musket is something of a rarity these days, which is kind of a shame. I've pondered making one myself, but getting a proper lock is a problem.

[Hungry Horse]

My specifically referencing Committee of Safety muskets was a mistake on my part. I want to build a musket that is definitely American, but utilizing a 1763 French lock( which I already have),with  furniture that reflects a cross section of muskets available in the colonies at that time.
 A recently discovered ancestor who was listed as a militiamen, and a gun stocker, in South Carolina during the war. The fact that he was listed as a gun stocker, and not a gunsmith, makes me believe he built muskets from salvaged parts.
 Any suggestions on details that might make this build more interesting, and of course authentic, would be greatly appreciated. I also have blacksmithing equipment, so some hand made furniture is a possibility as well.

  Hungry Horse

[rich pierce]

Do you have the book Flintlock Fowlers by Grinslade? Lots of inspiration there. I see if in ebay for about $40.

[Hungry Horse]

Thanks Rich I'll look for a copy.
 By the way have any of you had any experience with the 1763 Charleville lock from The Japanese Charleville musket? I bought the lock years ago, and back burnered the musket project because the lock needed a lot of tuning. The mainspring was so strong it was almost impossible to cock it out of a gun. And, the sear spring was so strong you almost couldn't fire the lock out of a gun. A friend call me a woosyboy because I couldn't get the lock to fire outside of a gun. When he showed me how it was done, the snapping cock nearly cut one of his fingers off. It is all much better now, but I am not sure if the frizzen is tool steel, or is case hardened.
 The fit, and finish, is pretty good on this lock, but the internals all needed polishing, and of course the spring issues mentioned before.
 This lock make a Bess lock look like something designed for a pocket pistol. It is truly massive.

  Hungry Horse

[smart dog]

Hi HH,
Yes, I am familiar with both the Japanese Bess and Charleville locks.  I find that the parts are very well cast and designed but it seems like they just assemble the locks with the parts right out of the mold.  No fitting, polishing, or tuning. If you treat the locks like an unfinished kit, you can build them into better locks than found on the Pedersoli versions.

dave

[Hungry Horse]

Dave;

  I suspected as much. The internals are pretty much as caste, just as you said. A friend had one of the Japanese Charleville that shot fine. Thanks.

  Hungry Horse

[Elnathan]

My specifically referencing Committee of Safety muskets was a mistake on my part. I want to build a musket that is definitely American, but utilizing a 1763 French lock( which I already have),with  furniture that reflects a cross section of muskets available in the colonies at that time.
 A recently discovered ancestor who was listed as a militiamen, and a gun stocker, in South Carolina during the war. The fact that he was listed as a gun stocker, and not a gunsmith, makes me believe he built muskets from salvaged parts.
 Any suggestions on details that might make this build more interesting, and of course authentic, would be greatly appreciated. I also have blacksmithing equipment, so some hand made furniture is a possibility as well.

  Hungry Horse

I think that a reused 1763 lock would be pretty unlikely until after the Revolution was over, but I suppose that a late-war cobbled musket might have a 1763 lock. If it was my lock and I really wanted a Revolutionary era musket, I'd look into rebuilding the lock to resemble an earlier French military lock (1754? Earlier models tended to have more curve to the plate than a 1763, I think, but I'm not sure about the 1754 model) or a civilian musket-sized lock with a gooseneck cock. I'm not a real big fan of the 1763 aesthetics, though...

Sounds like a fun project, though. Be sure to post pictures.

[Hungry Horse]

I have seen pictures of Revolutionary War muskets made from 1763 and earlier French parts. They are not as common as those made with what I assume were battlefield scavenged English musket parts though.
 A friend bought a French musket at a gun show years ago. I can only assume the seller didn't know what he had. The stock was a repurposed 1777, but the lock was an early French lock made in Maubeuge in the style and size of the 1763 Charleville, but with a brass pan, and a gooseneck cock. The barrel was carbine length, and when we removed the barrel bands, we found a nice wedding ring filed into the barrel. The gaps around the tang, and the buttplate, which were from a 1763, were nicely filled with small pieces of wood. I have no doubt this gun was built late in the war from surplus parts shipped here from France.
 The 1763 parts would have been obsolete with the introduction of the 1777 models, since the parts aren't interchangeable.

  Hungry Horse

[Elnathan]

I have seen pictures of Revolutionary War muskets made from 1763 and earlier French parts. They are not as common as those made with what I assume were battlefield scavenged English musket parts though.

Not to be contrary, but how do you know that they were Revolutionary? The requirements for militia did not end after the war, and were actually made a matter of Federal law in 1792 and 1795. A cobbled together musket is difficult to date...


 

A friend bought a French musket at a gun show years ago. I can only assume the seller didn't know what he had. The stock was a repurposed 1777, but the lock was an early French lock made in Maubeuge in the style and size of the 1763 Charleville, but with a brass pan, and a gooseneck cock. The barrel was carbine length, and when we removed the barrel bands, we found a nice wedding ring filed into the barrel. The gaps around the tang, and the buttplate, which were from a 1763, were nicely filled with small pieces of wood. I have no doubt this gun was built late in the war from surplus parts shipped here from France.[/i]

How would they have gotten a 1777 stock in 1780?

 

The 1763 parts would have been obsolete with the introduction of the 1777 models, since the parts aren't interchangeable.

In Europe, yes. the 1763 and 66 models - and the US copy, the Springfield 1795 -  were the best available on this continent until after the war of 1812, I think. I really don't think that there were many spare parts off of the Continental Army's most valuable weapon available until after the war, and even then most of the Charlesvilles went into storage, I think, whereas the other weapons - CoS, British, Dutch, etc, were the first to be surplused.

Point being, a Charlesville lock would fit much better on a 1790s or war of 1812 militia musket than a Revolutionary one.

[Skirmisher]

I think the term Committee of Safety is confusing.  Those Muskets represent only a small proportion of American assembled arms built under authority of these committees in the period generally preceding the Alliance.  Many, many more were constructed locally but not under committee authorization and under Congress's authority in major facilities at Philadelphia and elsewhere, or by individual state's.  There are lots of this sort of thing around, and they frequently utilize surplus parts provided by the French.  One example in my collection uses all Brown Bess parts except for a French lock of the 1771-1774 type.  Another, clearly backwoods, uses a French M1754 lock, barrel, and trigger guard, with all mountings American made along French patterns.  This is mounted in a curly maple stock.  Almost any combination is possible in the 1777-1783 period, with both Brit style pinned barrel arms and French style banded types being made.

[Treebeard]

For those who might be interested the maker of Committee Of Safety muskets I met at the Ft. loudon 18th Century Traide Faire last Oct. was a Robert Vanlier of Earlysville, Va. I liked his muskets but also appreciated him volunteering a seat to my partially disabled brother for the reenactment.

[smart dog]

Hi,
I have a commission that I am working on right now for a colonial restocked British commercial musket.  The context is a militia musket that could have been carried very early in the Rev War by a NJ or NY militia soldier.  The gun is built with old parts from a Wilson commercial musket from the early 1750s but upgraded with a sheet brass nosecap and sheet metal thimbles for a steel ramrod. It will be stocked in good curly maple that my friend logged and dried in Vermont.  Basically, it will look like a slimmer version of the transition pattern 1748 British musket stocked in maple.  I am currently building the lock.

dave   

[jerrywh]

 Smartdog.
    Did they ever stock those in maple?

[smart dog]

Hi Jerry,
Yes.  If it was restocked in the colonies it would be stocked in maple, walnut, or cherry.  I think maple was the most popular wood in the northern mid-Atlantic and New England colonies.

dave

[Hungry Horse]

My general plan is to stock a 42" round 12 gauge barrel, in a quilted maple stock, in club butt style. I am back dating a 1763 French lock by removing the frizzen bridle, and adding a support arm from the frizzen spring screw. The iron  triggerguard will be French, while the buttplate, ramrod pipes, and sideplate, and trigger, will be shop made. All will be lightly aged. The bayonet will be a plug type.

  Hungry Horse