Why tighter fitting loads?

[Darkhorse]

Excellent 50yd group.

That's the point. And that's why I don't understand the need for those supertight loads. Realistically would someone explain any expected gains in accuracy. This is not a one time group here, the rifle and load can do this any day, I may not do it all the time but I wouldn't be able to with a thicker patch either. I have selected only a few lubes and it doesn't seem to matter, they will all shoot the same.
I probably wouldn't use this patch for 100 yards, the .018 Pillow ticking patch would be my choice. But I don't remember the last time I even shot at 100 yards.
I admit, the powder charge is the limiting factor with the .015 cotton patch, but I have no reason to use enough powder to wreck the patch,  instead I just use the pillow ticking.
It's hard to ask these questions to get the answers I'm looking for so I'll just quit here.

[Daryl]

That's an excellent 50 yard group, Ron. I've never seen better from a hunting/trail walk rifle, aside from my own.  25 yards, yes - even from smoothbores, but not 50 yards. It's good.

I just found out I cannot post pictures now, unless I pay photobucket money.  Guess I need another site.

[flehto]

Lately Photobucket's pop up ads are really interfering w/ posting my pics  I think they're on their last legs and want money from "the freeloaders" to continue. This interference has become very aggravating...previously I just tolerated their shenanigans because the pop ups would eventually stop, but now they don't stop......and actually prevented me from posting pics.

Thanks again to ALR for their easy pic posting procedure......Fred

[Daryl]

All of my photos from Photobucket have turned black saying I have to pay "Update my Account" to post 3rd person. I guess I am looking for another photo-hosting outfit.

[Sharpsman]

As for blowby:



A PP bullet!

Very limited blowby and cloth is a lot more durable than paper!

[OldMtnMan]

That looked pretty good with the gases behind the bullet, but that looked like a paper patched conical.

[Sharpsman]

That looked pretty good with the gases behind the bullet, but that looked like a paper patched conical.

I believe I typed that underneath the video as shown!

[OldMtnMan]

Never saw it. I read the top and watched the video.

[hanshi]

Darkhorse, to say those targets are good is a major understatement; they are truly exceptional.  Obviously, your load is a good one but your shooting is great!  I like snug loads because they keep the bore clean enough to continue shooting and not having to keep cleaning it. 

This photobucket site is a disaster.  Most of my pictures were put there before they self-destructed.  It is sloooow and often doesn't even work.  It use to be so simple and workable.

[Sharpsman]

Never saw it. I read the top and watched the video.

If there is a point to the video...my thinking was/is that pillow ticking or other patch material is a good bit less fragile than paper and coupled with a good lube possibly there would be minimum 'blowby for gas leakage or deformation of the PRB!  For anyone that hasn't a copy of Dr. Franklin W. Manns' book 'The Flight of the Bullet from Powder to Target' would be a really good investment!

[Lee44shootercnb]

http://castpics.net/subsite2/ClassicWorks/The_bullet_s_flight_from_powder_to_targe.pdf

Have great safe 4th.
Tgrn

[wmrike]

It has long been my observation that if you ask Average Joe about his best shot, what he will describe to you his memorialized luckiest shot.  On this basis I am skeptical of generalizations or "factizations" of shooting prowess a couple centuries ago.  I think that what we read about are those memorialized lucky shots.   I have to believe that today's methodical shooter has better equipment and technique, and that includes the luxury of the time required to load a tightly patched ball.

[Bob Roller]

Never saw it. I read the top and watched the video.

If there is a point to the video...my thinking was/is that pillow ticking or other patch material is a good bit less fragile than paper and coupled with a good lube possibly there would be minimum 'blowby for gas leakage or deformation of the PRB!  For anyone that hasn't a copy of Dr. Franklin W. Manns' book 'The Flight of the Bullet from Powder to Target' would be a really good investment!

I would say that long bullet was fires from a highly specialized Long Range Rifle like a Rigby or Henry
and the upset of the bullet was more than adequate to fill the grooves.Related to a round ball gun only
by the fact it was loaded from the muzzle.

Bob Roller

[hanshi]

I've noticed that in the martial arts there are "levels" of technical ability.  The majority will see these incredible martial artists (of all ages) and wonder why they pale so in comparison to these athletes.  Fact is that what they're seeing is the 5% or 10% of practitioners who have not only lived to do their art but also those with amazing physical abilities.  The average person is...well, average.

I think what we hear and read of is NOT the usual rifleman but rather the cream-of-the-crop!  Think of your greatest shots with a bow; pretty darn good, eh?  Then see these guys who hit tossed coins and who hit tiny targets by "ricocheting" arrows off walls.  Such people are, indeed, "special".  Talent is distributed among humans with a lucky few getting HUGE doses of it that the rest of us cannot comprehend.  Just look at the fabulous custom gun builders and compare with the home hobbyist. 

I have no real knowledge of reported incredible shots from history.  I will say that some people seem almost magical in performing their "gift".

[Darkhorse]

Hanshi, One notable shot that comes to mind is Timothy Murphy's 300 yard fatal shooting of British General Simon Fraser at the battle of Saratoga. I would think he held himself to the highest standards of marksmanship and  that he was one of the "Rare Breed" of rifleman.
That is, if one believes that version of the story. I count myself among the believers and consider him an American Hero.

[Elnathan]

IIRC, Tim Murphy's name was only associated with the shot that killed Fraser a generation or two afterwards, so the story is a little suspect.

One interesting theory I've run across comes from Artificer, who suggested that Sergeant Murphy was the spotter for his squad of riflemen who were "walking" their shots onto Fraser's position. Given that 300 yards is pretty much the extreme range for a roundball rifle with fixed sights and the importance of the target, it makes sense that Morgan would have detailed more than one man to the task. "Walking" shots onto a target that would otherwise be out of accurate range is a tactic used later by sharpshooters in the Civil War, and while I don't know of any real evidence for its use in the Revolutionary War I don't think it is out of the question for them to have done so.

Murphy went on to serve in Sullivan's campaign against the Iroquois and had a narrow escape from being killed or captured when his patrol was cut off and destroyed - IIRC, he was the lone survivor in one of the very few setbacks for the Americans in that campaign.

[Dennis Glazener]

Isn't there a story about an old soldier with a fowler that was much closer to Fraser that is thought to have fired the killing shot? I can't remember were I read it and may have part of it wrong but I am sure he was closer.
Dennis

[Elnathan]

Isn't there a story about an old soldier with a fowler that was much closer to Fraser that is thought to have fired the killing shot? I can't remember were I read it and may have part of it wrong but I am sure he was closer.
Dennis

Yeah, there is. It was written down much sooner after the event than the Murphy version, too, I believe. I'm not sure that I believe it either, though, as it has a "folklorish" flavor to it....I know where you read it, but that article was two or three computer crashes ago and I don't have the link anymore.

[hanshi]

I remember the report about Elmer Keith when he was an armorer during or around WWII.  He sent seasoned veterans walking away shaking their heads when he was able to demonstrate hitting a man size target at 600 yards with a .45acp.  I have little trouble taking some of these incredible shots at face value.  Ed McGivern considered the .357 to be a 600 yard shooter, as well.  With these, and other feats, to consider I might require documentation, such as in the Murphy case, but would not discount such examples out of hand.

[Darkhorse]

I think that story had an old man, a veteran of the battle of Saratoga, saying some 53 years after the event, that he saw someone besides Murphy kill the general. This link has that story and many others seeking to tear down the myth of an american hero. I see no more fact in any of them than the accepted version where Murphy actually made the shot. Most are pure speculation.
https://allthingsliberty.com/2013/03/the-myth-of-rifleman-timothy-murphy-and-the-power-of-the-written-word/

The version of the old man makes me wonder, it seems the original version was at that time already the accepted version or else the old man would have nothing to comment on. Maybe he held a grudge?


So why do some feel it's worthwhile to continue to question the actions of a notable soldier from America's most important war?

[Elnathan]

"So why do some feel it's worthwhile to continue to question the actions of a notable soldier from America's most important war?"

Interests of truth?

Also, since Tim Murphy's shot is THE example of Rev war marksmanship that has been endlessly dissected to in attempts to understand the capabilities of these old rifles and the men that used them, the question of if it ever took place or if it took place at the range and under the circumstances claimed is rather important don't you think?

Maybe we should compile a list of feats of marksmanship from the Revolutionary war and pare it down to just the ones that are eye-witness accounts or those written shortly afterwards by obviously reliable witnesses, and exclude propaganda accounts, third-hand stories, accounts written down two generations afterwards, etc., and consider those only when asking questions like the OP. Wonder what we'd end up with?

[rich pierce]

Let's turn this discussion away from whether or not a Timothy Murphy or anyone else of fame did or did not do something remarkable associated with the Revolutionary War.  That seems to be a hot button topic for some.

On Saturday I tested 0.012 patching of tight weave linen versus 0.018 cotton, paired with a .445 round ball and 60 grains of powder in my GRRW .45 flintlock barrel.  Crisco lube.  GRRW barrels had narrow lands, quite narrow.  I could load the 0.012 linen patched balls without a short starter but the recovered 0.012 linen patches were mere shreds and the group was about 2 and a half inches at 50 yards.  The 0.018 cotton patches required a short starter and for ease I used a second, 12" small rod with a doorknob handle to get it the next foot down the bore easily.  From there the ramrod took it home with several pushes. The fired 0.018 patches were not quite ready for a second use but close, and the group shrunk to about an inch which is the best I can do.

All of this was as everyone would expect.

I ran a wet patch every 10 loads and did not get a build up at the chamber area that way with either load.

For hunting I will stick with the 0.018 for the first shot.  Would choose patching for the second shot, if needed, depending on the situation.

[Turtle]

On my new .50 rice barreled rifle with square bottomed rifling, I have been shooting a .490 ball and .015 patch and it shoots OK. I have funneled the barrel and load only with my hollow brass ramrod. After many shots now, It loads easier enough that I am going to try a .018 patch-thanks for the encouragement. I have found that a lube with some lubricity pushes down easier than spit or non slippery peroxide  mixtures or Lehigh valley. I usually use mink oil, but need to clean after 10 shots or so depending on weather conditions.

[Darkhorse]

I use some fairly dense weave cotton cloth .015 I bought from a fabric store a decade or so ago. This stuff in not nearly as dense or tough as the .018 Pillow ticking I also use. I use a .530 and a .395 ball. With the .015 and any lube I can start it easily by hand with no problems seating the ball. Same goes for the .530, I prefer LeHigh Valley but also use a 50 50 mixture of canola oil and LHV. In loading or accuracy I can see no difference between the 2.
Both rifles shoot this combo off the bench into small groups  at 50 yards. Once you reach about 60 grains in the .40 that thin patch shreds. At 80 grains in the .54 the thin patch is still holding together but is starting to burn little holes.
If looking for small game accuracy or general shooting the .015 patch gives me all the accuracy I need, and with right lube I can shoot without cleaning as long as I wish.
But if I need a hunting load or for match shooting I use the .018 patch and either the LHV for matchs and Wonder Lube for deer hunting. This load can be tough for me to start anymore as I have shoulder impingement in both shoulders. So I just use a rubber mallet to seat the first shot, then use the .015 if a second shot is needed. The .018 seems to give a little better accuracy.

[hanshi]

Some years ago I watched a documentary about archery.  The really good bow hunters gave a fine accounting of themselves.  Then, switch to Mongolia and the descendants of the Mongols.  These guys lived with their bow.  They would race around on horses and hit, every time, targets like apples, balls, etc, from running and rearing horses with their short, stiff bows.

And guys like Bob Munden hitting an egg at 100 yards with a .45 acp 1911; and that's just starting his accomplishments.  So many of the old legendary shots are suspect and could easily be a product of luck.  But if one has talent and lives with his weapon, upon which his and his family's survival depends, it's easy to see that there is a rarefied level of skill that we'll never know.