Author Topic: Why tighter fitting loads?  (Read 33855 times)

Offline Elnathan

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Re: Why tighter fitting loads?
« Reply #100 on: July 06, 2017, 02:08:25 AM »
Some years ago I watched a documentary about archery.  The really good bow hunters gave a fine accounting of themselves.  Then, switch to Mongolia and the descendants of the Mongols.  These guys lived with their bow.  They would race around on horses and hit, every time, targets like apples, balls, etc, from running and rearing horses with their short, stiff bows.

And guys like Bob Munden hitting an egg at 100 yards with a .45 acp 1911; and that's just starting his accomplishments.  So many of the old legendary shots are suspect and could easily be a product of luck.  But if one has talent and lives with his weapon, upon which his and his family's survival depends, it's easy to see that there is a rarefied level of skill that we'll never know.

Charles Chenevix-Trench, in A History of Marksmanship, Mongol (or Turkish) archery from moving horses, and if my memory serves me correctly remarks that hitting an orange from a moving horse at ten or fifteen yards or so, while not exactly easy, is not nearly as difficult as it sounds - he was one of the last British cavalrymen to train on horses, right before his regiment was mechanized, and by the end of his training he was doing similar feats with a revolver.  MacDonald Hastings, in How to Shoot Straight, while mostly devoted to teaching the Churchill method of shotgunning, does have a chapter on snap-shooting with a rifle in which he mentions Boers hitting antelope on the run from the saddle of a moving horse, apparently a common feat for them. There is also the story of the guy along the Ohio frontier, whose name I have forgotten, killing the Shawnee "Old Clubfoot" with a snapshot at 100 yards through the woods while on the back of a moving horse - Eckert mentions the incident in both The Frontiersmen and That Dark and Bloody River, I think.

So, I think that someone who grew up along the frontier or in the backcountry with a rifle in their hands was, as you say, very skilled within the parameters of normal (for them) weapons use, and probably capable of feats that to us would be quite extraordinary. The caveat is that snapshooting is a quite different skill-set than long-range shooting, and since I doubt that most riflemen did much shooting beyond 100 yards or so outside of fighting Regulars, trying to shoot a man at two or three times the range would have taken them outside their comfort zone.

Like Flehto, I'm very curious as to how they managed to get an accurate load without the aid of a shortstarter, particularly since I'm not wholly convinced that they coned either, at least as we understand the term. I have a suspicion that the answer is quite simple and obvious, but the differences between modern replicas in such things as crowning, twist, and sights, as well the differences in how the guns were/are used, are obscuring something.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Turtle

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Re: Why tighter fitting loads?
« Reply #101 on: July 06, 2017, 07:29:35 PM »
Here's a theory my post made me think of; Colonial rifleman often used bear grease or sperm oil patch lube --right? This slippery lube  would enable them to load tight without a short starter. A lot of modern lubes have little or no lubricity requiring short starters and pounding. maybe?

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Why tighter fitting loads?
« Reply #102 on: July 06, 2017, 07:58:29 PM »
Not sure I agree. I use bear tallow for patch lube. I have to use a short starter and I don't load as tight as some of you guys.

A .530 ball and .015-.018 patch.

Offline hanshi

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Re: Why tighter fitting loads?
« Reply #103 on: July 06, 2017, 08:28:33 PM »

Like Flehto, I'm very curious as to how they managed to get an accurate load without the aid of a shortstarter, particularly since I'm not wholly convinced that they coned either, at least as we understand the term. I have a suspicion that the answer is quite simple and obvious, but the differences between modern replicas in such things as crowning, twist, and sights, as well the differences in how the guns were/are used, are obscuring something.
[/quote]



That is something that stumps me.  It is something we've missed and, sadly, will probably never know for sure.  All I can say about it is that many of these guys were more familiar with their weapons than the majority of modern rifle shooters.  Maybe the few with exceptional talent are the ones remembered.  I just don't know.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline hanshi

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Re: Why tighter fitting loads?
« Reply #104 on: July 06, 2017, 08:31:32 PM »
While this subject is still fascinating, we may be close to this becoming a Frankenthread.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Why tighter fitting loads?
« Reply #105 on: July 06, 2017, 08:33:18 PM »
In looking over pictures, especially with Jaeger rifles, the muzzles appearing sharp, but are actually relieved similarly to how I re-crown barrels, except the makers filed out the grooves and lands to give the same effect as a nicely ground/sanded crown.  That was evident from shadows and some of the angled photos taken.

This filing will allow similar loads - and if loading as Dphar does, no short starter is actually necessary, however it does make the job of seating the ball and patch into the bore easier.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Why tighter fitting loads?
« Reply #106 on: July 06, 2017, 09:35:21 PM »
Correct me if i'm wrong.

Don't serious target shooter use a false muzzle so they can load a super tight ball, but still have a nice sharp muzzle? It would seem if you want the ultimate accuracy you'd have no crown at all.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Why tighter fitting loads?
« Reply #107 on: July 06, 2017, 11:02:11 PM »
Correct me if i'm wrong.

Don't serious target shooter use a false muzzle so they can load a super tight ball, but still have a nice sharp muzzle? It would seem if you want the ultimate accuracy you'd have no crown at all.
   Yes many if not most serious bench, light bench, and cross stix shooters have false muzzle's  on their rifles. My light bench gun shoots a 530 ball in its 520 bore. After ball/patch combo is through the false muzzle it loads as easy as silk. When the false muzzle is taken off to shoot you can see the actual muzzle is cut off sharp and square.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Why tighter fitting loads?
« Reply #108 on: July 07, 2017, 12:20:59 AM »
Correct me if i'm wrong.

Don't serious target shooter use a false muzzle so they can load a super tight ball, but still have a nice sharp muzzle? It would seem if you want the ultimate accuracy you'd have no crown at all.

Match rifles were made that way in the later 1800's - possibly some of the privately owned "sniper rifles" of the civil war also had false muzzles - or bullet starters, a simplified version of a false muzzle. I do not think false muzzles were used prior to 1840, if THAT early. There were a LOT of firearm's advancements after 1840-ish.

By mid 19th century, Remington was turning out rifles with 'bullet-starter-turned' muzzles, meant for a guide bullet starter. The bullet starter flange fit the outside of the turned muzzle.  These were in use prior to the Civil War and pictured in "Firearms of The American West 1803-1865".
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Why tighter fitting loads?
« Reply #109 on: July 07, 2017, 09:49:43 PM »
You missed my point. I'm talking about today's target shooter. They use false muzzles to not only load tight loads, but to have a nice sharp muzzle with no crown. This leads me to believe a crown takes away from accuracy.

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Why tighter fitting loads?
« Reply #110 on: July 07, 2017, 11:32:34 PM »
You missed my point. I'm talking about today's target shooter. They use false muzzles to not only load tight loads, but to have a nice sharp muzzle with no crown. This leads me to believe a crown takes away from accuracy.

As I understand it with regard to crowns, the influence of an imperfect crown/muzzle is greatly influenced by the shape of the projectile-such that a elongated bullet is much more influenced by imperfection in the crown than a roundball.  I can see that now, thinking of the leverage (steering) of the escaping gases they rush past the exiting projectile. 

Still gotta hold to the wind.  ;)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 11:33:24 PM by WadePatton »
Hold to the Wind

Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Why tighter fitting loads?
« Reply #111 on: July 07, 2017, 11:44:58 PM »
Yeah, I have to hold the wind when ladies are present.  :)

Offline Daryl

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Re: Why tighter fitting loads?
« Reply #112 on: July 08, 2017, 06:28:50 AM »
You missed my point. I'm talking about today's target shooter. They use false muzzles to not only load tight loads, but to have a nice sharp muzzle with no crown. This leads me to believe a crown takes away from accuracy.

Yes - I know exactly what you are talking about when referring to the muzzle's shape when the false muzzle is removed - now or back then - same deal. The sharper the muzzle, the more accurate the release of the bullet.

However, we are talking about round balls as Wade notes, not bullets.  We need a method of loading a tight combination, required for the best accuracy. Thus, the muzzle must be as sharp as possible, but still allow a tight combination to be loaded.

That is why a coned muzzle 1" deep, did not work for me - blow-by before the ball exited the bore - the coned muzzle opened my groups.  I had to cut some off the muzzle and re-crown it to my soft radiused crown, which allowed a nice tight combination with thick patch and larger ball, close to bore size, in 2 barrels, even over bore size with EASY loading & good accuracy.  I don't see the sights and target as well as I did back in the 80's and 90's, but my last 100meter 5-shot round ball group put 5 into 2.56", with 4 of those into 1.052" - 2 weeks ago. Oft wondered how it would do with a gizmo aperture sight? Hmmmmm

Make your round ball rifle's muzzle sharp like a false muzzled rifle's barrel crown and we'll have a contest -  cloth or paper patched round balls only.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 06:33:47 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Why tighter fitting loads?
« Reply #113 on: July 08, 2017, 02:36:31 PM »

Like Flehto, I'm very curious as to how they managed to get an accurate load without the aid of a shortstarter, particularly since I'm not wholly convinced that they coned either, at least as we understand the term. I have a suspicion that the answer is quite simple and obvious, but the differences between modern replicas in such things as crowning, twist, and sights, as well the differences in how the guns were/are used, are obscuring something.



That is something that stumps me.  It is something we've missed and, sadly, will probably never know for sure.  All I can say about it is that many of these guys were more familiar with their weapons than the majority of modern rifle shooters.  Maybe the few with exceptional talent are the ones remembered.  I just don't know.
[/quote]


It depends on what is the standard for accuracy.Is it being able to stay in a 6" black circle
at 100 yards or is it 5 shots cutting together at 100 yards? I wish I still had the targets I
shot back in the mid 1960's using tight loads and Bill Large barrels. The 5 cutting together was
not uncommon then off a rest.Most were 54 and 58 caliber round ball barrels with one 45 fast
twist barrel on an Enfield and another a former trap door Springfield Cadet rifle that the
trap door broke off in my hand on extracting a fired case.
After the first shot from a new barrel,I look for a star pattern that matches the number of grooves.
If it's not there and intact then a redo of the crowning is the next thing before wasting any more powder
and lead.A super sharp muzzle is not needed to produce this pattern if the crown is right.
Years ago I made a tool to dress a muzzle at the range and used it usually on breech loaders like
45-70's. I will see if I can get a picture of it in use and post it.

Bob Roller

rfd

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Re: Why tighter fitting loads?
« Reply #114 on: July 08, 2017, 04:31:16 PM »
an interesting thread to some about a highly subjective matter that leads to lotsa rendered opinions.  y'all know about opinions, so here's mine on the subject of this thread ...

there is no reason for a "tight load" should yer "loose load" render personally acceptable performance ... OR, vice versa.  take yer pick, let yer gun and load testing do the talking and then .... choose what you prefer.

that's all that matters and that's that.


Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Why tighter fitting loads?
« Reply #115 on: July 08, 2017, 04:36:20 PM »
You missed my point. I'm talking about today's target shooter. They use false muzzles to not only load tight loads, but to have a nice sharp muzzle with no crown. This leads me to believe a crown takes away from accuracy.

Yes - I know exactly what you are talking about when referring to the muzzle's shape when the false muzzle is removed - now or back then - same deal. The sharper the muzzle, the more accurate the release of the bullet.

However, we are talking about round balls as Wade notes, not bullets.  We need a method of loading a tight combination, required for the best accuracy. Thus, the muzzle must be as sharp as possible, but still allow a tight combination to be loaded.

That is why a coned muzzle 1" deep, did not work for me - blow-by before the ball exited the bore - the coned muzzle opened my groups.  I had to cut some off the muzzle and re-crown it to my soft radiused crown, which allowed a nice tight combination with thick patch and larger ball, close to bore size, in 2 barrels, even over bore size with EASY loading & good accuracy.  I don't see the sights and target as well as I did back in the 80's and 90's, but my last 100meter 5-shot round ball group put 5 into 2.56", with 4 of those into 1.052" - 2 weeks ago. Oft wondered how it would do with a gizmo aperture sight? Hmmmmm

Make your round ball rifle's muzzle sharp like a false muzzled rifle's barrel crown and we'll have a contest -  cloth or paper patched round balls only.

My competition shooting is long over with my vision and age. I did make a good living at it in the 70's. I just hunt now and have never lost an animal since the 50's. So, i'm still accurate enough. I have nothing to prove.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Why tighter fitting loads?
« Reply #116 on: July 08, 2017, 07:37:31 PM »
There ya go, you have it figured out, as do most of the rest of us.  We've found what is needed, for us.  When a question comes up as a how to, or why, those with perhaps more stringent

 requirements will sound out in left field compared to those with lower or less stringent standards for accuracy.  What is accuracy to each of us, might not compute with other shooters. 

I am once again reminded of the young lad at the range in the mid 1970's, with a .50 calibre Italian gun he was entirely tickled with his accuracy.  I was shooting my Bauska Barreled 38" twist 1/2

stock using slugs and making 5-shto groups of 1 1/2" or a bit less at 100yards.  This rifle was my turkey shoot rifle and had aperture sights. 

The young lad said, "people just throw these things away, I shoot them" and held up a .30/30 case with the rim filed down a bit.  "I load them with sand and plug 'em with beeswax - they're really

 accurate. I can hit my target 3 out of 5 shots." He was shooting them at paper target at 25 yards.  For him, that was accurate.

Obviously, this was excessive and we all have more stringent requirements than this lad, but does present the case as to differing requirements, shooter to shooter.

The important thing, is to do what works for YOU.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 07:40:15 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Why tighter fitting loads?
« Reply #117 on: July 08, 2017, 08:20:50 PM »
True, and I bet we require the same accuracy from ourselves. I just prefer to hunt than punch paper. I know you're going to say you do both. I practice as much as anybody and more than most. I just do it with woods walks on natural targets from hunting positions instead of at a range on paper. I feel my kind of practice is more helpful for hunting. Different angles, lighting and unknown distances. Just like hunting. Plus, for me, it's way more fun.

Nobody is as hard on me as me. I can't make excuses to myself.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Why tighter fitting loads?
« Reply #118 on: July 09, 2017, 08:21:08 PM »
This is the same course we shoot most Sundays, all winter, spring and fall Sundays.  This short video with a back-ground sound track from the Last of the Mohicans movie.
All shooting here is offhand.  OMMan - I'm 'a wavin' atcha.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 08:21:43 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline hanshi

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Re: Why tighter fitting loads?
« Reply #119 on: July 09, 2017, 10:33:57 PM »
Now, that looks like too much fun to even be legal!  ;D
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

rfd

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Re: Why tighter fitting loads?
« Reply #120 on: July 09, 2017, 10:37:34 PM »
most of the shooters in our club don't wipe for fouling control, and ball starting is usually an easy proposition.  all shooting is "out of the bag", too.  if it ain't fun, we try not to do it.


Offline Daryl

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Re: Why tighter fitting loads?
« Reply #121 on: July 10, 2017, 02:48:51 AM »
" all shooting is "out of the bag", too"

As do we.

Sure a lot of cap shooters.  We were like that some 20 years ago, now more flintlocks than cappers.  There were only 3 cap shooters this year at our rendezvous. No video, though - dang - where's Donnella when you need her?

10 shots I see, rfd!  We're doing 20-24 shots per morning, then after lunch, we do something different, like hawk and knife, or in in-camp close range shoot, like 50yard plank or a trap.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 02:57:48 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline OldMtnMan

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Re: Why tighter fitting loads?
« Reply #122 on: July 10, 2017, 04:37:18 PM »
Daryl.........I can only dream of having shoots like that close to me. I'd be at every one of them. We have nothing here. So, i'm left with doing it alone. Fortunately, we can target shoot in out national forest legally. So, I have millions of acres of public land to do it on. It's not a competition with me shooting alone, so I try and enjoy it that way.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 06:30:00 PM by OldMtnMan »

Offline Daryl

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Re: Why tighter fitting loads?
« Reply #123 on: July 10, 2017, 06:20:54 PM »
Just being able to wander around in the bush or through mixed land types, with a rifle in hand, is a joy unto itself.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

freddiej

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Re: Why tighter fitting loads?
« Reply #124 on: July 10, 2017, 06:34:44 PM »
Regarding the perceived need for tightly fitting loads to achieve the best grouping precision from a muzzleloader, go to: Muzzle Blasts, Vol. 78, #9, May, 2017, p.24 for a extensive series of tests with tight and loose loads in






























a variety of guns