New Hawken Build

[OldMtnMan]

You guys hunting for cape buffalo?

[Daryl]

Some day, hopefully, but more likely water buffalo and scrub bulls in Australia.

[OldMtnMan]

Meanwhile, what are you using those loads on?

[Daryl]

I practice with the same loads I use for hunting, in all my guns, which, btw - are the most accurate loads in my rifles - except for the .69. I only use the heavy load, 140 or 165gr. when shooting long range- past 100 meters. The heavy charges are a mite 'wearing' on an old body.

[OldMtnMan]

I could never take that recoil. I had skin cancer removed from my cheek and it left it really sensitive. That's why I only shoot 80gr of 2F for elk in a .54. It seems to be enough to get the job done. It also shoots good groups.

I've been rethinking about the .58 in the Hawken build. I might stay with the .54 since it will be my elk gun. Plus, it's a rough copy of the Kit Carson gun and that was a .54.

[Daryl]

.54 is a good calibre and one I might have at some point in the future as a hunting rifle.

I witnessed a shot on a moose,. had I been the guide, I would not have permitted it, that landed perfectly, driven by 100gr. of phony powder.  The range was 170yards. The ball coursed straight across punching lung, the heart, the other lung and stopping on the hide after punching through a rib.  Those ribs are almost 1/2" thick, some over that, depending where & which one. The moose took off like a race horse out of a starting gate, dropping dead mid-stride after 40 yards - about a 4 second dash. I guess the .54 had enough punch for a killing shot, however the placement could not have been more perfect.  The hunter was exceptionally lucky as he was not a good shot, imho.

For those who think foot pounds of energy is killing power, that ball had about 200 fpe at impact - less than a .38spl. 158gr. RN factory load from the 60's.

[Mike Brooks]

.54 is a good calibre and one I might have at some point in the future as a hunting rifle.

I witnessed a shot on a moose,. had I been the guide, I would not have permitted it, that landed perfectly, driven by 100gr. of phony powder.  The range was 170yards. The ball coursed straight across punching lung, the heart, the other lung and stopping on the hide after punching through a rib.  Those ribs are almost 1/2" thick, some over that, depending where & which one. The moose took off like a race horse out of a starting gate, dropping dead mid-stride after 40 yards - about a 4 second dash. I guess the .54 had enough punch for a killing shot, however the placement could not have been more perfect.  The hunter was exceptionally lucky as he was not a good shot, imho.

For those who think foot pounds of energy is killing power, that ball had about 200 fpe at impact - less than a .38spl. 158gr. RN factory load from the 60's.

170 yards is way too far for hunting with a RB in a ML with open iron sights.

[Daryl]

I agree, Mike.  The guide should not have allowed the shot.  The hunter was not capable of making it, without an incredible amount of luck.  I can only surmise it was that Moose's "time".

The point being, a large calibre round ball is VERY effective if landed correctly.

[Clark Badgett]

The way I understand it. Hawken would have made about anything a customer wanted. Who would bet their life on the fact Hawken never made a LH gun?

This is not any left handed hate here, but this is where an understanding of history comes in handy. Not so long ago, in the grand scheme of things, being left handed was not considered to be a good thing. Great pains were taken to make those that naturally were indeed left handed to use their right hand, to include writing with the non-naturally dominant hand. Couple this with an era preference to care about one's public persona, and you will come to understand that while The Hawken Brothers would indeed build a gun how you wanted it, no one would want a gun that publicly displayed something that was considered to be deficient. No one living could ever say with 100% certainty that a left handed gun was ever built or not, but it can be said with a good bit of probability that it was unlikely and if so, very, very, very rare.

[OldMtnMan]

Well, i'm blind in my right eye and wear a patch over it full time. This could also be the case with someone in Hawken times. Do you think Hawken or anybody else would tell a person blind in his right eye that he should still shoot right handed?

Hawken would have built that person a LH gun and that's what i'm building too.

btw..Read all the posts in this thread and you'll see someone saw a LH full stock Hawken.

[Darkhorse]

There always has been a LH bias that continues to exist to this day. Being a natural left eye dominant person and a totally LH person by birth I have seen a lot of this bias. Oftentimes the offending person doesn't see him/herself as being bias as what they say or do makes perfect sense from a RH point of view.
If I had lived anytime from 1700 to 1900 and had the funds to purchase a new rifle and the independence to ignore the general opinions, I would have insisted the chosen gunsmith to build me a LH rifle. Now I might be forced to concede a LH lock due to availability, but I would still want cast off (or cast on) and a LH cheekpiece, I would at least have a rifle that fit me, and not so hard to make either. Or I would find a gun maker who would accomadate my wishes.
I was lucky to be born to a family who didn't view being LH as a disadvantage. My father was left handed and in his youth was a splendid athlete, he was also a part time SP in Honolulu during the war and as his scars prove was in his share of scraps. He said his best advantage was being lefthanded and knowing how to hide it until needed.
My father and uncles and older cousins tried to develop the benefits of being lefthanded. They taught me to shoot, to box and to hit a baseball, and to throw curves and fastballs all lefthanded.
The legibility of my hand writing suffers because of teachers interference and bias. And this started a long time ago for me so I've seen a good bit of it.
My father in law is heavily biased, he is left eye dominant, insists on aiming with his right eye and can't hit the broadside of a barn. I've coached too many LH kids who's parents insisted their child bat and throw right handed. Kids who had real ability and potential but ended up quitting because they couldn't hit or throw.
I agree with OldMtnMan on this and I appreciate those who offer LH'd kits like Jim Chambers, Track of the Wolf and others. I've built 2 LH longrifles and I couldn't care less if anybody built a couple in 1776.
I would like to see more variety instead of the same thing that's sold today. And it seems all discussion about those Numerical Control rifles are rightsided only. And seeing the list of new rifles and those being considered, yeah, I think all Left Handers are being slighted.
Feels good to get a rant off my chest.

[oldtravler61]

  Good point's when I was growing up(ok maybe I haven't) I started writing left handed an was taught that wasn't the way. Right handed was correct.
  Well fast forward an I shoot right or left. It works wonders when a deer comes out the wrong side of the tree.
  My dominant eye is my left. Oldtravler

[Clark Badgett]

Well, i'm blind in my right eye and wear a patch over it full time. This could also be the case with someone in Hawken times. Do you think Hawken or anybody else would tell a person blind in his right eye that he should still shoot right handed?

Hawken would have built that person a LH gun and that's what i'm building too.

btw..Read all the posts in this thread and you'll see someone saw a LH full stock Hawken.

Oh you mean this post (which I read BTW)
"There was supposedly a LH Hawken in a museum in Michigan that was destroyed in a fire.
It was said to have a back action lock. If there was such a creature it may have been a
Hawken marked barrel used in a restocking job. I think the name of the establishment
was The Military Inn.

Bob Roller"

Look real carefully at the bolded and underlined parts. I'm not saying you can't build a lefty rifle, or that you shouldn't. Just do it because you want to and stop with the "what ifs" and "maybe could ofs". I am one of those rare types that can shoot just as well either handed, and have yet to see any disadvantage to shooting a righty rifle lefty.

[Bob Roller]

  Good point's when I was growing up(ok maybe I haven't) I started writing left handed an was taught that wasn't the way. Right handed was correct.
  Well fast forward an I shoot right or left. It works wonders when a deer comes out the wrong side of the tree.
  My dominant eye is my left. Oldtravler

Sometime before 1962 I made a LH half stock percussion rifle for Bob Bartee who was
my barber for years.It was 45 caliber,walnut,silver guard and butt plate,single trigger
and it was used by him until he passed away years later.I have tried to find it but it
seems to have vanished.
Our first born son showed symptoms of being left handed and we did NOTHING to discourage
it.The ONLY options are LEFT and RIGHT the last time we looked.Turns out he was ambidexterous
and demonstrated that with a modern 45 auto that holds 14 shots.Still is as far as we know.
One local idiot said he'd rather have a cross eyed son than a left handed one and I told him
I thought he was stupid but by saying that he had removed all doubt.

Bob Roller

[OldMtnMan]

Well, i'm blind in my right eye and wear a patch over it full time. This could also be the case with someone in Hawken times. Do you think Hawken or anybody else would tell a person blind in his right eye that he should still shoot right handed?

Hawken would have built that person a LH gun and that's what i'm building too.

btw..Read all the posts in this thread and you'll see someone saw a LH full stock Hawken.

Oh you mean this post (which I read BTW)
"There was supposedly a LH Hawken in a museum in Michigan that was destroyed in a fire.
It was said to have a back action lock. If there was such a creature it may have been a
Hawken marked barrel used in a restocking job. I think the name of the establishment
was The Military Inn.

Bob Roller"

Look real carefully at the bolded and underlined parts. I'm not saying you can't build a lefty rifle, or that you shouldn't. Just do it because you want to and stop with the "what ifs" and "maybe could ofs". I am one of those rare types that can shoot just as well either handed, and have yet to see any disadvantage to shooting a righty rifle lefty.

Since you haven't seen every Hawken that was ever built. You don't know either. No matter anyway. I'm building a LH version and will call it a copy of a Hawken. If that annoys you it's on you, not me.

[Mike Brooks]

Since you haven't seen every Hawken that was ever built. You don't know either.

Wish I had a dollar for every time I have heard that.

[OldMtnMan]

I know Mike. I have too, but it's a good line.

[rich pierce]

Is it worthwhile to start a new topic on which if any left handed rifles are historically accurate?  Seems to be the main focus now here. We can split it out if you like.

[Bob Roller]

Is it worthwhile to start a new topic on which if any left handed rifles are historically accurate?  Seems to be the main focus now here. We can split it out if you like.

I personally heard the late Tom Dawson say "The best any of us will do is to make a representative
type"and he included himself in that group.Anyone building a personal hunting rifle should make it
to what ever configuration wanted or needed.If it's left handed,so be it.I have made a few LH locks for
these in past years and saw nothing wrong with them.
My late father in law had Tom Dawson build him a late S.Hawken style rifle in .45 caliber for a 400
grain bullet.Bill Large custom barrel,my lock and triggers.
Sid Estep made an exact copy of a Hawken according to the dimensions on the Robideaux prints
and it was superbly accurate .His father thought the crescent butt plate was an abomination and
Sid made one for him with a shotgun butt plate and he hunted with it until he passed away.
Sid was and is a superb machinist and in the mid 1970's I showed him how to make locks and
triggers and he did a good job but couldn't get a good start in the market even with my help so
he quit.He also made a few very fine butt plates as well for the Hawken.

Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

Pete - should be just fine, however, much depends on the powder charges you will be using, whether or not the hooked butt plate is going to be hard on the body. The heavier the better if using heavier charges for say, elk or moose.

1" seems to me to be quite small for anything larger than a .54.  what will it weigh?   I did not see a weight suggested, but 36" of barrel should help that out a bit.

When Bill Large got his shop operational in 1958 he made a 1"x33" 58 caliber barrel and gave it to me.
I made an offhand gun from it and it won a major event in Ohio in the hands of a friend that I loaned it to.
It was a 1 in 44 twist with 8 grooves and used 65 grains of DuPont 3fg and a patched .575 ball and was
a tack driver. This was all before pouring a half can of powder down a barrel,late 50's,early 60's.

Bob Roller

[hanshi]

The "left hand vs right hand" debate definitely testifies to a continuing predominance of goods made for the right handed.  I am, at least for vast majority of my years, right handed.  As a kid I shot my BB guns and bows & arrows left handed.  Really can't recall when I switched but I do recall it took a bit of time and effort.  I'm right eye dominant; but the vision in my right eye - even after cataract surgery - is still not as good as my left eye.  Years ago I shot at least as well with handguns using my left hand as I did with my right.  Deer hunting I've killed deer with left hand shots when they appeared far to the right or when I couldn't re-position myself.  I'm right handed but still can do certain things better with the left.  As a boxer I could fight southpaw just as comfortably/skillfully as orthodox; that made me a good sparring partner for ringers.  I wouldn't even try and go back to predominantly left hand shooting as it's too much trouble and hard to find suitable equipment.

[OldMtnMan]

I wish I was that way. I'm very dominant right handed in all I do. It took me awhile to get used to shooting left handed, but I had no choice. I wasn't going to give up shooting/hunting.

I bet I shouldered a rifle left handed 5000 times before even taking my first shot.

[smokinbuck]

When I lost the use of my right eye about 15 years ago I determined to learn to shoot lefty, after better than 40 years of shooting righty. Had a heck of a time so I rigged one of my unerhammers to be shot righty with my left eye while I kept practicing. I now have 4 leftys that I shoot and haven't looked back.
Mark

[Bob Roller]

I agree, Mike.  The guide should not have allowed the shot.  The hunter was not capable of making it, without an incredible amount of luck.  I can only surmise it was that Moose's "time".

The point being, a large calibre round ball is VERY effective if landed correctly.

I think it was Col.Charles Askins that said he preferred to get so close that he had to take a few steps
back to get the rifle in position to fire..I think the article was called "Good hunters don't make long shots".
Incredible luck was the key here on that shot. I would not have made it even with a Whitworth or some similar rifle.

Bob Roller

[OldMtnMan]

 "Good hunters don't make long shots".

I've been saying that forever. I get so much flak from the CF hunters i'm surprised I haven't been hung by now.