J.Henry Lancaster finished

[Longarm]

Finally finished this Lancaster, it's a .58 cal. barrel  43 in. long. My first attempt at engraving.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Great looking rifle Longarm!!  I don't know much about Henry rifles but I think I'd have reduced the size of the panels around the lock.  You're off to a great start with your engraving.  I like the blue lock and the stock finish is super.  What'd you use?

[Longarm]

The lock panels are correct, the Henry trade rifles were kinda clunky. This gun was built from blueprints drawn of one of the rifles in the Museum of the Fur Trade. I browned the barrel and the lock parts with Laurel Mtn Forge's solution and boiled everything in distilled water.

[Chuck Burrows]

NICELY done Larry...

As for the lock panels - as Larry noted these guns didn't always have the best lines, and on most of them the lock panel shape varies quite considerably between wide, narrow, and at the rear end almost tear drop shaped. They were individually made in a more or less production line system and minor variations abound amongst the relatively small number of rifles available to us for viewing......
Maybe it was a matter of hurry up and get it finished or maybe it was one place that the workman (mostly jourenymen rather than master) could add their own "personal" touch.

[Roger B]

There was a lot of variation in the lock panels & other aspects of these trade rifles.  Essentially they were doing mass production before mass production techniques were available, so what you got was mass variation on a theme.  These suckers had some big locks too which makes reproducing them difficult.  If you get the stock dimensions right from an original & then put in one of today's production locks, you get chunky panels.  I speak from personal experience. The big L&R Ashmore lock is what most people use because of the size & shape of the lock as well as the fact that the roller is on the frizzen spring.  The bad news is that the detached pan is all wrong & doesn't really look like a "trade" lock.

Is this one of your Paull locks?
Roger B.

[Chuck Burrows]

These suckers had some big locks too which makes reproducing them difficult.  The bad news is that the detached pan is all wrong & doesn't really look like a "trade" lock. Roger B.

Roger - with respect I must disagree to a point on both statements.
The Old and New English pattern often had the big six inch lock plate, but mid-1830's and later orders from American Fur Co for the New English (aka scroll model) specifically requested them built with the five inch locks as was most often used on the Lancaster/American pattern.
As to waterproof pans, in 1818, Henry's firm received a shipment from Liverpool, England, that included dozens of "swivel, single roller, double roller, and skeleton pan" (double roller had a roller on the frizzen spring and on the main spring in lieu of a stirrup). In Astor's 1825 letter to Henry, he ordered the American aka Lancaster pattern from Henry with non-waterproof pan roller locks in 5" and "to be the same as the sample Rifle of J. Dickert and Gill now furnished by the Compy", but in 1830 and later, Ramsay Clark of AMFco ordered rifles with waterproof pans, so the L & R is a definite possibility as a lock for that time and place. I've also got a pic of a fancier grade flint Leman with a waterproof pan and a converted Henry that still has the back flash guard on it from a waterproof pan so waterprrof pan locks did see at least some use of trade rifles.
While certain characteristics/details can be defined to a "pattern", others such as locks varied depending on time and availability. One example: even though Henry was building their own locks by 1837, there is a letter to AMFco asking if they can help him find a supply of Englis import locks of any type in order to fill their contracts.

I'm not Larry of course, but I believe that lock is a re-worked Chambers, Late Ketland???

[Longarm]

  Taylor, the stock was stained first with Laurel mountain Honey maple as an undercoat then a couple of coats of their maple. Finish is Jim Chambers , rubbed in by hand, first time I've used it and was very pleased.
   Roger, this lock is a Jim Chambers Classic Ketland that has been welded up and filed to match the profile of the Henry 5" lock that was used in the Scroll Guard (or New English Pattern) and the Lancasters. I'm now having a mold built to produce these locks using Jim's guts. I have used a Paull lock in the past for a friend that had been hoarding it for years, but I now have my own molds from my own master for the 6" English Pattern lock, I just built the first one and it's going in a gun now.
    Chuck is right on from what I know about the Henry made locks and the English made locks with the "waterproof"pan, I think the imported locks were used mostly in "civilian" guns, not the trade rifles that were shipped west. The iron mounted Henry in the Smithsonian is in my opinion one of these guns , and not a Henry built lock.
           
          Larry

[Roger B]

I stand both enlightened & appreciative.  I do not doubt your information one bit, but what source(s) are you guys using?  I would really like to learn more!  I'm not sure why these Henry guns attract me, but I find them fascinating.

[Berks Liberty]

Longarm,

I like the work you did.  I've been eyeing up the same style lock on my next project.  Very nice! 

Jason

[Chuck Burrows]

but what source(s) are you guys using?  I would really like to learn more!

Howdy Roger -
Still fighing with a migraine, but I'll post some of my sources tomorrow and I'll bet Larry will have some that I don't and vice versa.....

[Dphariss]

From "Firearms of the American West 1803-1865" pg 35

This is William Astor to JJ Henry describing American Fur Company rifles in October 1825. Stating that they import  part of their rifles but buy 100-200 made in America.

"...The barrels of our rifles are 3 ft 8 inches to 3 ft 10 inches the caliber is in part of them 32 [to the pound] while the others carry 40 to the pound--the Locks are of the best strong roller kind; but not waterproof..." "....The whole weight of the rifle complete, is from 9 to 10 lbs.... "

The book has about 2 1/2 pages of information on JJ Henry rifles for the west.

Dan

[Sean]

Larry,

You did a fine job on that Henry.  In truth, its probably better than the original in terms of fit and finish.  The Chambers Oil looks good on it and is quite fitting for this gun.  The patchbox engraving is maybe a wee bit more subtle than the originals, but is much better quality work.  One of my favorite quotes on trade rifles comes from Bob Lienemann when he told me that many trade rifles look like they were engraved "by a monkey with a screwdriver."  If anything, all those classes with Jim are gonna make you too darned good for everyday, workin man's trade rifles.  

As far as the lock goes, you did a great job on it and I am looking forward to seeing that 6" lock.  Its really hard to make sense of that quote in Garvaglia about the use of English locks.  It makes sense that they used them, but its also evident from the letter that James Henry wrote for his paw to AFC in 1834 about the scroll guard that Henry was proud of his own locks and preferred them to the imports.  So few of these guns have survived that we can't really get a feel for how many guns made for Western use got his locks verses the imports.  Up to this point, I have not seen an English, New English, or fullstock Lancaster made by him with an English lock but I have seen smaller caliber fullstocks and half stocks with them.  I tend to feel like you that the Henry locks predominated on the AFC guns, but don't thing for a moment that they were the only locks used.

Roger,

References on Henry and other trade rifles are tough.  Other than Garavaglia and Worman, a lot of them are expensive or out of print.  Send me a pm and I'll see what I can dig up for you.

Sean

[Longarm]

Sean , you always have new and interesting tidbits , the little book pt out by the Jacobsburg Historical Society "Henry of Boulton" isn't bad for a general history of the Henry family of builders. I was lucky enough to find a new copy of the Proceedings of the 1984 Trade Gun Conference from the Rochester Museum & Science Center , although it was pricey. It is a great resource on the development of the "English Pattern Rifles".



It's not a very good shot Sean but here is the first of 6" english Pattern locks from my molds. Clunky huh!
     Larry

[Sean]

Nice.  It looks like you beefed up the toe on the frizzen and added a roller frizzen spring.  You did a really good job.  I'll be looking forward to a report on how it sparks and how long the flints last in that big rock chucker.

Sean

[Roger B]

Wow!  That English pattern looks like mine with the exception of the fact that we used an unaltered Chambers Late Ketland.  My copy of the Chambersburg book came directly from the museum about two years ago & didn't cost much.  I also have the article from The Buckskin Report yea those many years ago.  I will be happy to scan it & send it to anyone who would like.  I really appreciate the information from you guys. 
Roger B.

[Sean]

That article Fred Johnson did in the old buckskin report is still the best resource out there on the English pattern.

Sean

[Chuck Burrows]

Some resources on Henry and other western fur trade rifles:
1) Firearms of the American West: 1803-1865 by Garavaglia and Worman - IMO a most valuable resource due to it's use of primary documentation especially orders, It has info on the Henry's scattered through out.
2) Gunsmoke and Saddle Leather by Charles Worman
3) The Hawken Rifle: It's Place in History by Charles Hanson, Sr - not only has a chapter on the eastern trade rifles, but also has a chapter of period adverts from St Louis which illustrate how varied the goods being offered were
4) The Fur Trade Rifle Sketchbook by Charles Hanson, Jr.
5) Firearms, Traps , and Tools of the Mtn Men and Guns on the Early Frontiers by Carl P Russell
6) Kaufman's and Dillin's books on the Pa & Ky rifles
Most of the sources are a bit dated so read them all with a grain of salt so to speak and cross reference as much as possible.
Sean has also graciously sent me copies of various  magazine articles he has found. He also has the contact info for Jim Gordon, who is offering a set of high quality, full-color books chock full of firearms of the fur trade - only kicker the price - about $300.00

From about 1780, the English were shipping trade rifles to America which were their version of the American Long Rifle - this pattern is what Henry from 1826 on, offered as their English model and after 1834 as their Old English model. After 1830 Henry was the main supplier of both English and American/Lancaster styles of rifles to American Fur and it's later permutations under various names as run by the Choteaus.

re: Water proof locks:
1) In 1830 Ramsey Crooks of AMFco ordered rifles from Henry and in his letter stated " ....I think the Locks should be waterproof..."
2) AMFco order Oct 1832: 10 rifles.....bll. 3f 4, 32cal (ed: 32 to the lb .526" ball size), 5In watpr locks maple stock....
oval cheek piece, long bacstrp, bll browned (an 1833 order also calls for browned barrels)....
10 rifles as above 3f 4, cal 28( ed: .550" ball size)
So we have at least 20 trade rifles ordered with water proof pan locks....

re: 5 inch locks on Scroll Guard aka New English Henry's
In 1843 the Ewing brothers ordered 270 Old English and Scroll guard rifles, the latter to...
"put on the same quality Lock which you put on the Eng Pat Rifle only not so large - say 5 inches...."

The Iron Mounted Henry which is illustrated in several of the above named books was not built by Henry as Larry noted above, it has a Henry barrel and IIRC lock, but was built by a North Carolina maker and is so signed. Henry sold barrels and locks as well as completed guns.

I Photoshopped the pic of Larry's 6" lock for a bit more detail....

[Longarm]

Chuck mentioned some magazine articles that Sean so graciously shared. What's up Sean, you holdin' out on me, as the unpaid head of my research dept. I would expect to have been informed of those too.

[Sean]

I think I sent them to you too, but those research department memos occasionally get lost in our filing system down here in the basement.   

Sean