Prayer hole on Lehigh rifles

[arlen]

I have recently read in an old post on ALR that original Lehigh rifles have a “prayer hole” under the finial of the patch box, into which were placed inscriptions or prayers.  Would any of the members have any pictures of these prayer holes, measurements, or description which would give me a better understanding of this feature?  Where might I be able to read more concerning this feature?  Is this mentioned in any books?

Here is the thread which mentions the prayer holes:  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=jcniottc60lo5e6jal62nh1mj3&topic=9335.0

[louieparker]

Arlen
I have wondered when and why these holes became  known as prayer holes. Does the term come from some historical writing ??  I have always considered them cleaning jag holes.  Some of them are not deep enough for any kind of a note. I know of John Rupp and a Herman Rupp rifle with these holes. The John Rupp has a hole near the right end of the hinge drilled toward the muzzle. Its a about 5/16 in. diameter and 5/16 in. deep. Then in the wood between the cavity and butt plate on the side toward the toe plate a groove is cut . The jag goes in the hole and the other end lays in the groove. The lid holds it in place.  On the Herman the hole is close to 3/8 in. in dia. and about 3/4 in. deep. No groove in the butt plate end. Louie

[Don Stith]

I have seen a couple that still had the jags,but never found a prayer in one Going back to the old post, The Pizen is believed to be on a replacement patch box in the 20th century

[arlen]

Thanks for the wonderful replies.  Storage for jags seems to me to be a very reasonable/probable use for these holes.  It seems that I have not read enough as yet.
Have these hole features been discussed in the longrifle books?

[louieparker]

Can't say for sure. But not that I recall.....LP

[rich pierce]

I'd call it a layer hole or a hole for the tow worm depending on the customer.  It sure would be great to not have tools rattling around or falling out of the patchbox.  I might start making such holes.

[Eric Kettenburg]

I just talked about this with someone, don't know if it's someone posting here or not.  It's a hole for a worm.  Usually around 5/16, typically 1 to 2" in depth, some shallower and some fairly deep.  They typically have a very shallow angle relative to the floor of the box cavity which leads me to believe they were drilled with a long spade bit welded to an undersized shank so as to easily clear the buttplate or rear of the stock while maintaining a shallow angle.  Years ago - and I mean, MANY years ago - someone found a rolled up piece of paper in one, and immediately the legend was born!  Admittedly it does sound more colorful.

They're a hole for a worm to prevent rattle.  ---> . <---

[jdm]

Do you mean something like this.  The first time I owned this there was a small piece of old  leather between the jag and the patch box release spring. When the rifle came back  to me several years later it was not there.  The question for me is .  What is the round hole for??

[RAT]

A while back Herb posted pictures of a J & S Hawken rifle in the collection of the Montana Historical Society. I recently had 2 opportunities to examine this rifle. It has a hole as described here. It's a single hole centered under the front finial and ends just short of the finial screw.

I never knew about these holes before seeing postings here on this forum. I've learned so much over the last several years from this forum. It's a great tool.

Previous postings mentioned this as a (possibly) regional characteristic. A rifle made in Missouri by guys who learned gunsmithing in Maryland, and worked in Virginia (Jacob) and Ohio (Samuel), pretty much disputes the regional idea.

[louieparker]

RAT
I never mentioned it in my other post, but I have a pistol made in Missouri. In its butt is a cap box. In the bottom of the box there is one of these  "Prayer Holes" . Some idiot stuck a ramrod worn in it. LP

[cwbuff]

I have always seen these "prayer holes" attributed to Lehigh county rifles. Is it known how widespread there use was beyond Lehigh county?

[Eric Kettenburg]

I'm not sure as I've ever seen a study or commentary in print as to the commonality of these holes in rifles of other areas.  They seem to have been very common in the Lehigh/Northampton region.  I know I have seen them in a few upper Susquehanna rifles of a later period and if I recall correctly I'm fairly certain that I've found one or two in obvious Bucks rifles.  Not sure about other areas or regions but I'm positive they are not found in other areas in the numbers seen in the old Northampton region.

If we want to really get into some mysterious hole issues, we should discuss the holes found in some Berks rifles and others (at least two Lancaster region of which I'm aware, and one or two later Lehighs) that were drilled inward from under the buttpiece between the box and the comb, of large bore (1/2" or larger) and inward quite a ways, at least 3-4 inches.  I suspect these were used as some form of stock mounting arrangement during construction; it would make the most sense and sure would be convenient for 360 degree rotation.

[rich pierce]

Wow. Never heard of such holes but intriguing.

[Eric Kettenburg]

Look at the floor of the box of RCA 21 (iirc off the top of my head).  That hole comes in from under the butt and goes forward quite a few inches, I think it's around 7/16" or 1/2" diameter.  Unfortunately, the box cavity ("oops") cuts into the hole.

Now, I could probably go on all day and really rile things up with my own personal thoughts in regard to the interaction between that hole and that box mortise.  I'll leave that be...

Nevertheless, that hole is a perfect example of what I'm talking about, has been found on a few of those pre-19th century Berks rifles and some others too.  It had to serve some purpose, just don't know what.

[rich pierce]

Eric,
Any chance the mystery buttstock holes have any teeth marks around them? I could see an iron rod with a toothed collar being used to mount the stock at the butt end in a vise and allowing rotation during shaping. Otherwise cannot see how it would hold firmly unless the inserted mounting rod was threaded.

Or, do go on all day about your topic of choice.