FIRST BUILD ADVICE

[taco650]

Hope I'm not opening Pandora's box here but...

I've been following this site for a couple months now and have gotten the bug to build a "traditional" styled BP rifle.  I know I want a round ball twist barrel of at least .50 and would like to use a flintlock if possible.  The "style" of rifle I'm drawn to is either full stock Hawken or something in the Southern Poor boy, Tennessee, Virginia vein.  I also like the Christian Springs/Edward Marshall rifles. 

I'm not much for frills and this is going to be for deer hunting and not a wall hanger.  Back around 1980 I "built" a CVA Mountain Rifle & pistol kits and liked them very much but as time went by and life changed, they were sold to buy other things so its not really my first build.

I've looked at several web sites that offer kit guns that need minimal fitting which is good for me because I don't have the time to work on a full inlet job.  I've looked at Jim Chambers, Tennessee Valley Muzzleloaders, Track of the Wolf and Sitting Fox as well as Dixie. My biggest limitation is $$$ and kits from all of the above except Dixie are more than I can afford.  I've almost settled on buying Traditions Kentucky rifle kit just because the price is right but the two piece stock is just awful to me and I'm not thrilled with a patent breech system.

Any suggestions on how to get a decent, shooter quality rifle kit without spending more than around $350-400?

[Mauser06]

Welcome!!!

Hopefully someone has better advice than I do. 


You're looking at $150-200 for a quality flintlock...just the lock.  Another $250 for the barrel and your budget is kicked.   Now, some builders, that's about all they purchase. But that means totally stocking the rifle from a plank (which typically costs money unless you have access to suitable wood). And making the trigger and furniture and the like.

Sounds like you want more of a kit that doesn't require too much work.  Other than maybe some factory kits, I don't know that you'll find any other option.  Not sure what a Lyman kit runs but I'd recommend one over traditions. Just a higher quality rifle IMO.  You can do some personalization and such and turn out a nice rifle. I've seen members here post them. 


My advice....save the money if you really want a high quality kit.  Jim Kiblers kits are probably very well within your abilities. But cost a good bit more...they are very fine quality kit guns though.   He currently has a southern mountain rifle in production and working on a new project that is said to be an earlier, bigger rifle.

Just depends what you really want.   


I hate spending lots of money all at once....it stings lol.  But only stings once. Right now I have most the expensive parts purchased for my next 2 builds. I bought piece by piece as I found what I wanted.  Didn't hurt so bad to do it that way. 



Good luck!   

[conquerordie]

Only two things I can think of: 1) by a used TC Hawken or Renegade. They were good guns. Use it as it is for now, but buy a nice piece of wood and restock it to your likeing, or 2) Save your money. Its not something to cheap out on. Good luck and keep us posted,
Greg

[Bill Raby]

   Faster cheaper better. Pick two. If all you want is to shoot a deer with a flintlock, the factory kits will do. Nothing to get excited about, but it will do the job. Or you could just buy one of the Pedersoli rifles at Cabelas. Not too much over budget and will get you a nice rifle. If you are more interested in building a rifle than having a rifle, save up and get a kit from Chambers or Track of the Wolf. Or just buy a barrel, find a lot of extra time, and make everything else from scratch. Saves a lot of money.

[Mike Brooks]

Any suggestions on how to get a decent, shooter quality rifle kit without spending more than around $350-400?
 Save some money for a couple months then build a Appalachia poor boy.

[elk killer]

Where are you located

[JNG3]

No such thing exists. If you want a quality longrifle, then be prepared to pay for it. I would NOT recommend buying a T/C and restocking it. By the time you pay for the T/C, pay for the stock, pay for all the other little odds and ends to 'upgrade' it, you would better off paying for a quality kit and building it yourself. There are no shortcuts in this game. Quality kits start at roughly $750. In the white rifles run $1000 or more. A rifle from a reputable builder will be $1500 or more. Likely much more. Quit going to Starbucks, cut out some of the frivolous nonsense in your life and save your pennies. Then buy a rifle that meets your needs, NOT a rifle that you settle for because you want to go the cheap route. By the way, be wary of any builder who claims he can build you a rifle for less than $1000.

[taco650]

Where are you located

Western GA

[taco650]

No such thing exists. If you want a quality longrifle, then be prepared to pay for it. I would NOT recommend buying a T/C and restocking it. By the time you pay for the T/C, pay for the stock, pay for all the other little odds and ends to 'upgrade' it, you would better off paying for a quality kit and building it yourself. There are no shortcuts in this game. Quality kits start at roughly $750. In the white rifles run $1000 or more. A rifle from a reputable builder will be $1500 or more. Likely much more. Quit going to Starbucks, cut out some of the frivolous nonsense in your life and save your pennies. Then buy a rifle that meets your needs, NOT a rifle that you settle for because you want to go the cheap route. By the way, be wary of any builder who claims he can build you a rifle for less than $1000.

From what I have been reading for the past couple months in my web searches, I'm getting the same impression.  I have thought of the piece-by-piece purchase method but knowing me, I'd get bored or distracted before I got all of the parts or worse yet, spend six months getting them and then let it all sit in a box for another six months.

[JNG3]

Taco650, I know my post seems a bit harsh, however I've been down the road you are on. I've seen many others do the same. Start saving money NOW. While you are saving, do research. Figure what you like, what your needs are, what your wants are. That alone will occupy your time for quite a while. Then buy a kit, in the white, or have one built. Then you get what you really need/want and have a quality rifle that will last. Look there is nothing really wrong with a Traditions, Lyman, Pedersoli or T/C in a functional sense. But they are built to a price point. Stuff happens, parts break. Try getting parts/customer service from Traditions or even worse Lyman. Traditions can be hit or miss, but Pedersoli and Lyman is awful from a parts and customer service standpoint. T/C does not make nor service/support their Hawken, Renegade, Seneca, etc anymore. Parts are hard to come by second hand and darned expensive. This is one of those things in life where you really do get what you pay for.

edit- if you are really set on a southern mountain rifle. Look at Jim Kibler's SMR kit. Excellent kit for a first time builder (some folks say it's near idiot proof). Great architecture and lines. Quality parts. Kit has a quick build time of a few days to a couple weeks depending on skill. You really, I repeat REALLY cannot beat it for what you pay. Assembled and finished carefully and with some thought, a guy could really end up with a superb rifle. Cost is roughly $1000. I know you said you wanted a .50, but a .45 will kill deer all day long and twice on Sunday.

[Mike Brooks]

No such thing exists. If you want a quality longrifle, then be prepared to pay for it. I would NOT recommend buying a T/C and restocking it. By the time you pay for the T/C, pay for the stock, pay for all the other little odds and ends to 'upgrade' it, you would better off paying for a quality kit and building it yourself. There are no shortcuts in this game. Quality kits start at roughly $750. In the white rifles run $1000 or more. A rifle from a reputable builder will be $1500 or more. Likely much more. Quit going to Starbucks, cut out some of the frivolous nonsense in your life and save your pennies. Then buy a rifle that meets your needs, NOT a rifle that you settle for because you want to go the cheap route. By the way, be wary of any builder who claims he can build you a rifle for less than $1000.

From what I have been reading for the past couple months in my web searches, I'm getting the same impression.  I have thought of the piece-by-piece purchase method but knowing me, I'd get bored or distracted before I got all of the parts or worse yet, spend six months getting them and then let it all sit in a box for another six months.

If you don't have the patience to gather up parts for 6 months before you lose interest I'd say this sort of thing isn't for you. This is not a cheap game to get in to.

[JNG3]

To quote Mr. Brooks- "If you don't have the patience to gather up parts for 6 months before you lose interest I'd say this sort of thing isn't for you. This is not a cheap game to get in to."

Well there's that too. This is a way of life, not just a passing hobby for most of us. Time, patience, and a love for these firearms is what is needed.

[Mauser06]

Agreed...it can take 6-12 months for the box of parts to be turned into a rifle depending on how much time you spend with it.  If "life" gets in the way like it does for many of us, it's a couple hours here and a few hours there.  I've been working on a barrel channel for a week or 2 now and you can hardly tell. Takes time.   For me, that's enjoyable.  I do most my work in the summer because I don't like the heat.


A gun in the white or a kit like Kiblers will go together much quicker.   A parts kit from many of the sources will take a good while. 




Anyone here ever only build ONE gun???   



I didn't think I'd build more than one...lol.  Now I'm like a squirrel getting ready for winter and hiding parts for the future. Certainly not a hobby for everyone.  Not so much the difficulty IMO but the time.  Many people, especially younger generation would say why spend months working on a gun when you can buy one?   

[Joe S.]

I must agree with Mike,if you don't have the patience, time to do research, get your parts,kit,whatever and have a plan you probably should buy one off the rack somewhere.In this endeavor you do really get what you pay for.Life does "get in the way"and sometimes it should,prioritys,if alls you can do is an hour here or there so be it.I'm lucky to get an hour here,there,knew that going in and thats just fine.When it's a job and puts bread on the table then you can rethink your position.

[Hungry Horse]

A little caution should be taken if you decide to buy the parts piece meal to build a gun. Most cheap barrels, even though made by premium barrel makers are a deal for a reason. Often they are a small caliber but like an inch and an eighth across the flats. Or, are a reasonable caliber, and O/D but are 26" long. Or, have  all kinds of extra stuff done to them that you can't fix. The same goes for stocks. There are many preinletted stocks floating around that are inletted for locks that are no longer available.
 All that being said, I have gotten nice stocks that a beginner can finish into a pretty nice gun, by calling some of the folks that make stocks. A nice stock with a mineral streak in it, or a bark inclusion in it can often be salvaged. The old gunsmiths didn't scrap a stock for things like that, but modern producers have a hard time selling them, which is good for you.
 The same goes for barrels. If you have your heart set on a .54 you are most likely going to pay full price for it. But if the barrel maker has one in an odd caliber, you can probably get a deal on it.
 If you decide to make a poor boy you can most definately make the furniture. Get Foxfire #5 and read the section on Hershel House. Most of the furniture on the rifle featured was made without a forge, mostly done with a hacksaw, and a propane torch.

   Good luck
  Hungry Horse

[Elnathan]

Couple of questions:

What is your tool situation? You don't necessarily need a chestful to build a gun, but if you don't have any at all than you should consider the price on those too. (There are ways of acquiring tools inexpensively, but it takes work and knowledge. We can probably help you with that...)

What kind of skills do you have? Any woodcarving or machining in your background? A lot of smaller parts can be made rather than purchased.

Where are you located and is there someone around you can show you the ropes? That really, really helps.

BTW, one of the most useful tools you can get is a library card. Interlibrary loans are wonderful, wonderful things, particularly when combined with a photocopy machine. On top of that, if your local library is anything like mine it has an extensive woodworking and tool section - it took me an embarrassingly long time to realize how very useful books on woodworking handtools could be, even if not directly related to gunbuilding.

[thimble rig]

Some times when you don't have a lot of money you have to think out side of the box.Does it have to be a fullstock rifle?Half stock would be a lot cheaper.Straight barrel about 160.00 1/2 stock blank around 70.00 good lock 175.00.Butt plate and trigger guard around 60,00.Make the under rib out of wood.Make youre own trigger thimbles sights.May not be exactly what you want.But it would get you started.

[taco650]

Couple of questions:

What is your tool situation? You don't necessarily need a chestful to build a gun, but if you don't have any at all than you should consider the price on those too. (There are ways of acquiring tools inexpensively, but it takes work and knowledge. We can probably help you with that...)

What kind of skills do you have? Any woodcarving or machining in your background? A lot of smaller parts can be made rather than purchased.

Where are you located and is there someone around you can show you the ropes? That really, really helps.

BTW, one of the most useful tools you can get is a library card. Interlibrary loans are wonderful, wonderful things, particularly when combined with a photocopy machine. On top of that, if your local library is anything like mine it has an extensive woodworking and tool section - it took me an embarrassingly long time to realize how very useful books on woodworking handtools could be, even if not directly related to gunbuilding.

I have plenty of tools its just that most of them are related to car repair or construction.  Not much use for a table saw in rifle building I'd guess.  Wood carving is something I've never done unless whittling sticks as a boy counts.  In another life I did autobody repair for 16 years and then TIG welded custom motorcycle exhaust pipes full time in a factory for three years after leaving the body shop so metal working is not a problem. 

Library card is up and running, used it today. 

I'm in Western GA and don't know of anyone who could "show me the ropes" in my area.  Doesn't mean there isn't anyone, I just don't know of any.

[taco650]

Some times when you don't have a lot of money you have to think out side of the box.Does it have to be a fullstock rifle?Half stock would be a lot cheaper.Straight barrel about 160.00 1/2 stock blank around 70.00 good lock 175.00.Butt plate and trigger guard around 60,00.Make the under rib out of wood.Make youre own trigger thimbles sights.May not be exactly what you want.But it would get you started.

I like half stock rifles, Hawken's, etc.

Thanks to everyone for their comments because they've confirmed many of my suspicions about "field of study" if you will and how hard core the regulars are on this site.  It has given me much food for thought although I feel mostly discouraged overall from what the majority of responders have posted.  Reality is real and I thank you all for being real about what is involved in flintlock rifle building.

Stuart

[SingleMalt]

It's not just buying parts.  You need a place to work with a sturdy bench and good lighting.  Tools, not Home Depot/Lowe's/Sears chisels (though some of their tools are perfectly fine), but Swiss or English chisels that will take and hold a surgical edge.  Books for reference.  Most importantly, patience, lots of that. 

[Elnathan]

I did the bulk of the work on my first rifle with a set of "12 for $10" razor-blade-stuck-in-a-dowel carving tools, a pair of cheap buck brothers full-sized gouges, couple of full-sized Stanley chisels, and a 4-1 rasp from the home improvement store. Kept them sharp on a $5 pocket oilstone from Walmart. Ideal? Hardly,  but they did work. Admittedly, the Stanley chisels were and remain pretty good tools.

I've done an awful lot of work over the years, not just on guns, on a little Workmate folding bench, because it was all I had. Aggravating to use, but better than nothing. Living in an apartment, a full-sized bench is out of the question...

These days the tools options have changed - the hardware store variety have gotten a lot worse, but there are options like flexcut carving tools that weren't available 20 years ago. I still think that, if you can find someone who can hep you with a certain specialized tasks, like drilling the ramrod hole and installing the vent liner, then you can do the rest with very minimal equipment.

Honestly, if you want to build a gun, get a lock, barrel, and a decent piece of wood, and set to work. Buy what you need when you need it, have patience, and you will find it a lot more manageable (if a much longer endeavor!) than you think.

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

  ... Taco.... You're from western Ga... I might suggest you contact Jim Parker at Calvary longrifles...He's near Birmingham AL, maybe not too far away...has a few classes on building every year.. builds excellent rifles, and is a nice guy... also has a couple videos on building on YouTube...check his website... building is a "learned" endeavor, and I do suggest learning from someone who himself has "learned" ....if you have that burning "want to"...take it slow, don't get discouraged and be willing to do what it takes .....best wishes on your journey.....Regards, CC Fiddler ..... 

[JNG3]

Taco650- I don't think anyone is trying to discourage you, at least I'm not. But the reality is that what you are looking for can't be bought for the money you are looking at spending. Here's some real help-

The easiest kit to put together and be historically accurate is Jim Kibler's SMR. It's a fine southern mountain flintlock kit in .32, .36, .40, or .45 cal. Walnut, maple or cherry. Quality components. Rice barrel, Chamber's lock, etc. There should be nothing that trips you up like screwed up inletting. Kit is well thought out. Lead time is about 4 weeks. Cost is $995 plus shipping. Should take you a couple days to a couple weeks to complete.

Jim Chamber's kits are much more involved to build. BUT they are quality kits that are historically accurate. Also quality components. Wide variety of kits and calibers/gauges. There should be nothing to trip you up. If a southern mountain rifle is not your bag then Jim Chamber's kits is where I suggest you look. Cost runs $910 plus shipping and goes up from there. He also offers pistol kits as well. Could take you a couple weeks to a few months to complete.

Now this may seem as heresy to some, but I do not recommend a Track of the Wolf or a Pecatonica kit as a FIRST build to anyone. Pre carved, pre inletted kits often can come with hidden problems that only show themselves later on in the build. These problems can really trip a first time builder up. If I had a dollar for every time I heard an experienced builder or gunmaker say that it's easier to work from a stock blank, I could retire. A Kibler or Chamber's kit should have none of these issues as a general rule of thumb.

If you want an 'in the white' rifle, then I would suggest Tip Curtis. He does not have a website, google his name and get his number and call him. However you need to know what you want ahead of time. Be prepared for a long lead time if he does not have what you want on hand. Been awhile since I've spoken to him, but prices likely start at about $1100 and higher. But you would have to call him to verify that. An in the white gun mostly just needs the metal and wood finished. It's 99% done as far as building/assembling. Should take you a couple days to a couple weeks to complete. Just know Mr. Curtis does not like tire kickers.

If you want a rifle built for you, then do your research. Pick a builder who specializes in the 'school of build' that you like. Pick someone reputable. If anyone claims they can build you a rifle for less than $1000, don't walk, run away as fast as you can. Ask me how I know this (actually don't as homicidal thoughts tend to cloud my judgement if I dwell on it to long). Plan on spending at least $1500 and waiting 6 months to 2 years. Builders don't appreciate tire kickers.

If none of this sounds peachy to you then walk away from this hobby. This is a small and specialized way of life with little to nothing that is manufactured on a large scale. Thus economies of scale come into play. Low consumer base and even fewer builders that largely make most of the guns, components and 'stuff' by hand means large expense and long lead times. You either jump into the dark waters head first or you stay away from the pond. There really is no way to 'dip your toe' into this hobby/way of life first. Maybe you would be satisfied with a T/C, Traditions, old CVA, Pedersoli or Lyman. But what if you spend a minimum of $300-400 for one of the fore-mentioned factory guns and you find that while you enjoy the hobby, the factory gun has left you wanting for more. Then you have wasted $400 that could of went towards a decent gun. A factory gun (except for the T/C) has little to no resale value. An American made longrifle does. With Lymans running $500+ and Pedersolis running $650+ they are not a good 'value' anymore. For the cost of two Lymans you can have a Kibler or Chambers kit. Economize at home. Eat pb&j at work for a few months instead of eating out. Sell off some unused 'junk' at the house. Do what you need to do. If you want it bad enough you will find a way.

I hope this post has helped you. I hope you decide to build or buy a nice longrifle.

[Joe S.]

Nobodys trying to discourage you nor talk you out of it.More like a dose of reality.From the information most don't think you can get where you want to be with what you want vs.what you wana spend.Most of these folks have a lifetime in this sport and that long gathering the tools and knowledge. At some point they too started where you are right now.Probably heard the same things your hearing,funny how that works,what ever path you choose,good luck and enjoy the journey.

[charlie44gs]

A CVA Kentucky Rifle Kit is listed on the Traditional Muzzle Loading "Trade Blanket."
http://tradmla.org/tmaf/index.php

Do not know anything about the kit or the seller. If you do not have much recent experience with BP rifles/kits this might be a good starting point.

Lots of great advice from people much more experienced than I am. Saw this a thought it fit your price range.

Charlie