FIRST BUILD ADVICE

[JNG3]

There is also a nice looking Hawken on the classifieds here. Don't remember the details of the add and it is far more than you were wanting to spend but worth a look.

in reference to the fore-mentioned CVA- The major issue with Traditions/Spanish made muzzleloaders is the soft frizzens.

[taco650]

Nobodys trying to discourage you nor talk you out of it.More like a dose of reality.From the information most don't think you can get where you want to be with what you want vs.what you wana spend.Most of these folks have a lifetime in this sport and that long gathering the tools and knowledge. At some point they too started where you are right now.Probably heard the same things your hearing,funny how that works,what ever path you choose,good luck and enjoy the journey.

Maybe my "discouraged" comment was worded poorly.  I don't feel beat up by you guys but the comments were definitely a "reality check" and that's what I want, the reality of the hobby.  I want the real deal because I hate wasting my time and money on something when a more planning/preparation could have saved me frustration.  I'm very glad to hear from people who've been down this path before me tell me plainly about the twist, turns and potential potholes involved BEFORE I take the journey.

Thank you all for the guidance and suggestions!!

[taco650]

... Taco.... You're from western Ga... I might suggest you contact Jim Parker at Calvary longrifles...He's near Birmingham AL, maybe not too far away...has a few classes on building every year.. builds excellent rifles, and is a nice guy... also has a couple videos on building on YouTube...check his website... building is a "learned" endeavor, and I do suggest learning from someone who himself has "learned" ....if you have that burning "want to"...take it slow, don't get discouraged and be willing to do what it takes .....best wishes on your journey.....Regards, CC Fiddler .....

Will look him up; Birmingham is only about 2-2.5 away.

Thanks!

[thimble rig]

You might want to check and see if there are any muzzleloader clubs close to were you live.That way you could check out different styles of rifles.There would probably be some guys there that builds rifles.They might help you out.Check out your local pawn shops to they sometimes have pretty good deals.

[KC]

Will look him up; Birmingham is only about 2-2.5 away.

I thought exactly the same thing that Cades Cove Fiddler told you. I took a class at Jim's shop earlier this year, it was five full days of hands on work with expert instruction, worth every penny and then some. The class was kind of based on a Chambers kit but one of the other attendees brought a Kibler kit and darn near had a shooter in about two days. The fit and finish on those kits are outstanding. I brought a Chambers Early Lancaster kit to the class and was able to fire it by the end of the week (although it was and still is not done). I hope to find the time to do another class with him, the whole week was a lot of hard work but was extremely informative and totally enjoyable. And another perk of the class, Jim's wife is a wonderful lady and is one of the finest cooks in the State of Alabama and possibly in all the south. If you can get to one of his classes, you wouldn't regret it.

[n stephenson]

I agree with thimble rig, Try to find a local club. There will almost certainly be some folks who will "take you under their wing"  I`ve noticed that in this sport if your willing scratch and claw your way along there will always be someone there to help drag you across the finish line. Our local club always has guys show up with extra rifles for newcomers to shoot. There are some alternatives to some of the afore mentioned options. Jack Garner in Corinth Miss. will do any level of stock work from inletting the barrel all the way to a finished gun . If you will buy your parts and are willing to come to Columbia Tenn. I will help you with the "hard" stuff. If you want one bad enough you`ll do whatever you have to. In 1983 when I was 14 years old I picked blackberries, worked in hay and tobacco all summer to get the $300 for parts plus the money to pay a professional gumsmith to help me.  Where there is a will there is a way. Don`t give up ,dig in!!

[Mauser06]

Like was said, no one is trying to discourage you at all.   Most all of us have been right in your seat.   



I accidentally put together my first rifle last year. I couldn't have done it without this site. I say accidentally because I got in over my head and ordered a replacement TC stock that required far more work than I realized.   For years I wanted to build my own Flintlock rifle. Rather than send it back I decided to learn. 

I had nearly no tools. Literally bought and ordered tools as I needed them or realized I would. 


I bought a set of flexcut palm chisles, a 4 in 1 rasp, a file and some sand paper.  That's literally about all I used. I used a scaple a fair bit..I have the handles and a couple different blades.


Now I have my 2nd build on the bench and the 3rd I have the lock and barrel for and will have the barrel inlet into the stock here shortly. Both builds from planks. I've since gathered better chisels from eBay. Bought a chest full of files and rasps.  More importantly IMO I bought good reference materials. I have a few books and videos now that will help me through and help turn out a better gun.


If you asked these guys "what's it take to be a decent gun builder" the list would go something like "some metal and wood working knowledge/skills, lots of time and a tremendous amount of patience".

I literally have none of that.  I'd be the worst candidate.  I took shop class in highschool...didn't really learn much useful there.   Had no tools. Don't have much free time.  Patience?  Many say you either have that or you don't. For me, I have been able to learn it through my life thus far.  My dad doesn't have any and for years I didn't. I get frustrated quickly and easily.  But I've learned that it's often a good asset to have and have worked on it. 

Now, I might work on a gun an hour or 2 a day a couple days a week.  I don't get very far very fast.  But that's the time I have. If I feel myself getting frustrated I know to turn out the lights. It's easy to booger up a piece of expensive wood in a hurry. 

I've really come to enjoy the heck out of it. 

And money wise, I just spent as much on a LOCK as I spent on my first used TC flintlock rifle.  I don't have money oozing out of my pockets. But quality parts are something I desire so I save for them and buy them when I can.  Parts aren't always immediately available either so I have already learned to plan the next build before the current build is on the bench. Right now I have a pistol on the bench...a rifle in the works and I know what the next is going to be and keeping my eye out for parts for it. 


It's a hobby for me...but I really enjoy it. 


Good luck with your decisions.   You've found one of the most valuable resources available....these guys can walk you through a build. Lots of GREAT tutorials. And if you run into a hang up, post a few pics and they'll set you straight.

[moleeyes36]

 

...Now, I might work on a gun an hour or 2 a day a couple days a week.  I don't get very far very fast.  But that's the time I have. If I feel myself getting frustrated I know to turn out the lights. It's easy to booger up a piece of expensive wood in a hurry....... 

This is some very important advice.  Many of us hobby builders have limited time that we can spend on a project because of work, family, health, etc.  It is easy to get impatient to finish a task at hand in order to complete the project.  Take your time and don't hesitate to knock off for the day when you get tired or hit a problem. 

Mole Eyes 

[Mike Brooks]

Ok, I'm glad you're prepared to deal with reality, many new guy aren't. I've been building these things for 37 years now, I'm not sure you could even buy the parts 37 years ago for $350-$400.
A straight barrel is $160
 A caplock is around $150, flint locks go for at least $175
Set triggers are what?.....$65 or more?
Misc small parts for a poor boy , probably another $40  at least.
 A decent piece of wood is at least $75
 A barrel inlet and RR hole is going to go at least $75
 Shipping all those parts around is going to go at least $80, probably more
Looks like parts will run about $700 more or less (likely more, not less)
This will get you a gun built that looks something like this if you know what you're doing....which you don't.




Then take into account you don't have any tools or a dedicated place to build one of these. Seems like a monumental task...of course I did it 37 years ago and have built 357 guns since then. So, it CAN be done, but I'm not betting the farm on it.
 In  your price range I'd cast about for a Thompson Center, that's what I started on.
 Not trying to pee on your corn flakes, but you said you wanted to deal with reality and there it is. SAve some money and get yourself a decent gun, you might get something used for $1200-$1500 that isn't too ugly.

[oldtravler61]

 There's been some really good advice given here. If your a scrounger like me. You can find a good lock for $125 or less. Barrels $150 an a stock for $75 give or take. If you decide on a poor boy. The sights, rr grumbles an trigger guard you could make yourself. With expert advice from members here. Not from me I'm a certified cults. Also you could start attending gun shows for longrifles an you would be flabbergasted at what you can be for less than $800. My first gun was parts was bought for $250. Getz barrel, Siler lock, premium stock an the brass trigger guard an butt plate. The deals are out there but yeah have to have the cash in hand. Have patience you will find what your after. Oldtravler

[Kingsburyarms]

Advice from a rookie - I know you have built kits before, PLEASE find a builder, either from this site, or from a local club, and go visit... Pick up a few rifles, look at the locks and triggers and the inletting, ask questions. You may find some ways of doing things yourself that you didn't think of.

I read books, watched videos, looked at pictures, but the first time I got the chance to pick up a rifle (Thanks David Price) and handle one, look at it, see how the parts went together, and bugged the $#@* out of David with a thousand questions, that's when I started to learn how he did it, and then to piece together what I needed, not what I thought I saw in all those books. David is worth his weight in gold for mentoring me.

Jon

[Daryl]

Like Mike said- something like this for 1 to 1.5 thousand.



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[URL=http://smg.photobucket.com/user/DarylS/media/36%20Squirrel%20Rifle/PB141910_zpsf99f2c81.jpg.html]

[oldtravler61]

  Daryl very nice rifle. Oldtravler

[Daryl]

Hope I'm not opening Pandora's box here but...
Any suggestions on how to get a decent, shooter quality rifle kit without spending more than around $350-400?

As to a decent kit- if limited as you appear, I'd save another hundred and buy a Lyman GPR. Best kit for under $1,000.00, imho and worlds ahead of anything from TC.

[taco650]

Hope I'm not opening Pandora's box here but...
Any suggestions on how to get a decent, shooter quality rifle kit without spending more than around $350-400?

As to a decent kit- if limited as you appear, I'd save another hundred and buy a Lyman GPR. Best kit for under $1,000.00, imho and worlds ahead of anything from TC.

Thanks Daryl and all others, even Mike Brooks, for the advice.  Guess I'm going to keep saving money and spend some more time thinking things through which is fine for me.  The itch will get scratched soon enough.

Another question for the hunters in the crowd:  is a poor boy a good hunting rifle?  They seem awful long for woods hunting.  Could you recommend another style?  I liked the Edward Marshall Chambers has for a hunting rifle but it does look kinda clunky compared to a Tennessee, Virginian or Southern rifle.  I'm practical sort so...

[Daryl]

The Edward marshal is a special rifle - a transitional rifle from Germanic to Penn. They are not clunky and are usually exceptionally nice to shoot.

Compared to a Tenn, small bore, yes - they (Marshal) are heavier, but then, they are made in heavier calibres, I would think .54 and up as best.

Taylor's Virginia is a Chambers made in .50, with a C weight barrel - exceptionally good offhand rifle for a 6'er- maybe 180lbs. of over, as the "C" packs some good weight to her.

[JNG3]

Rifle length is not really an issue in the woods. It's just that you are not familiar with it.

[Mauser06]

Don't worry about the length.  A well balanced long rifle will feel like a feather. That length goes unnoticed really.

I didn't believe that.  My first experience was a 44" barreled smooth rifle. My turkey gun.  For years I carried a 21"  barrel modern gun.  Weight is probably the same.. actually the modern gun may weigh more..hard to say without putting them on a scale. 

The length doesn't bother me a bit.

Doesn't look at numbers so much.  Pick the school or known guns that YOU like the traits of. Some of the earlier guns are somewhat robust but also have sleek and slenderness about them. Not anything clunky about most of them. Wouldn't realize the butts are usually somewhere around 2" thick..

[Dennis Glazener]

Another question for the hunters in the crowd:  is a poor boy a good hunting rifle?  They seem awful long for woods hunting.  Could you recommend another style?  I liked the Edward Marshall Chambers has for a hunting rifle but it does look kinda clunky compared to a Tennessee, Virginian or Southern rifle.  I'm practical sort so...

The best handling hunting rifle I ever built was a NC poor boy with a 38 inch B profile 50 caliber barrel. I used a Late Ketland flint lock and it was, to me, an ideal hunting gun.
Dennis

[n stephenson]

To answer the question about the poorboy being a good hunting gun. These rifles were used in the south for a long time. I`m sure game laws were probably nonexistent but, the game in some areas was hunted to the point where there was none left. The whitetail deer were not brought back here until the 1950s . The southern mountain rifle was no degenerate style . It was a streamlined killing machine light on frills , heavy on accuracy. Just because they were iron mounted didn't mean rough, some of the mounts on these old rifles are works of art. You would be hard pressed to find a sleeker , slimmer  ,better shaped rifle than a Jim Kibler kit rifle and this rifle is based off an original. They handle VERY nicely too.   Like most of the other original styles of rifles, there are copies made that are really nice with all the subtle details that make them special and, then there are poorly made " copies" that leave a lot to be desired. I will climb down from my soapbox now. I don`t mean to be the self appointed  defender of the SMR but, the folks who love and study these pieces of American history will probably agree If anyone that  thinks these rifles weren't something special just hasn't looked at them closely enough.   Take a closer look.  End of rant  !!!!            Nate

[JNG3]

And a loud AMEN to the above post! Preach on Brother N Stephenson! 

[WadePatton]

...Another question for the hunters in the crowd:  is a poor boy a good hunting rifle?  They seem awful long for woods hunting.  Could you recommend another style? ... I'm practical sort so...

I hunt whitetails in thick areas where a 15-40 yard shot is the normal thing.  I also hunt in more open and ruggedly steep terrain.  I have never ever thought that my rifle was too long (despite many more years of modern arms hunting), and am building the next few with longer bbls.  My first has a 42-inch bbl and it handles so nicely and goes easily where my previous arms went-even with less fuss (no optics or sling to foul). 

In and out of vehicles and buildings, sure shorter is easier.  But in the woods, where it counts, I'd now feel lost without a 'reach out there' bbl.  So don't choose a style based on some possibly misguided notion of "quick" or easy handling-not in a rifle.

[taco650]

...Another question for the hunters in the crowd:  is a poor boy a good hunting rifle?  They seem awful long for woods hunting.  Could you recommend another style? ... I'm practical sort so...

I hunt whitetails in thick areas where a 15-40 yard shot is the normal thing.  I also hunt in more open and ruggedly steep terrain.  I have never ever thought that my rifle was too long (despite many more years of modern arms hunting), and am building the next few with longer bbls.  My first has a 42-inch bbl and it handles so nicely and goes easily where my previous arms went-even with less fuss (no optics or sling to foul). 

In and out of vehicles and buildings, sure shorter is easier.  But in the woods, where it counts, I'd now feel lost without a 'reach out there' bbl.  So don't choose a style based on some possibly misguided notion of "quick" or easy handling-not in a rifle.

Thanks for explaining this. I'm just going off what I see in pictures and spec sheets... which I know doesn't tell the whole story. I have not been able to handle any of these rifles but they certainly look cool to me.  I'm also a history buff and gun nut so the two go hand in hand I would think.

Thanks to all the others who replied as well.  I'm trying to learn so I can make informed decisions so please bear with me and all my silly questions.  Thanks again,

Stuart

[n stephenson]

Stuart, You haven't asked stupid questions , your just trying to get some feedback. That`s what most posts are . People wanting to learn. It`s a good thing this forum is free. If we think this sport is expensive , imagine what access to this much real world , first hand  knowledge would cost.   Nate