Drill marks in the Patchbox - Historically accurate?

[Kingsburyarms]

After some very good discussions with some builders, I have an "Accuracy" question. Should you keep the hand drill marks in the bottom of the patch box?  - Attempt to reduce them to the drill pin holes?, or try to eliminate them? I have had all three points of view, and wanted to know what would be most accurate.  Now I know the rifle types, locations and "quality" all come into factor, but I wanted to get some feedback on this for my growth and knowledge. This it the Kibler with Bean patch box I am making now, yet I have so much more to learn, and many more rifles to make -

Is there a standard??

Thanks,

Jon

[David Rase]

Jon,
My school of thought is that I like to at least scrape the bottom level and remove any circular rings.  I think we need to remember that these guns were built in a workmanlike fashion.  That said, workmanlike is not a substitute for poor quality.  I don't think gunsmiths from the day would spend a lot of time messing with areas of the gun that were not seen on a regular basis.  That said, I do believe they wanted to keep these areas neat and tidy.  Below is an example from a Jacob Lauck attributed rifle finished in the way I think was typical.
David
 

[jerrywh]

 Personally I don't polish the bottom of my shoes.  Same goes for patch boxes and bottom barrel flats. Gold bands don't go all the way around the barrel. For What??

[David Rase]

Personally I don't polish the bottom of my shoes. 

Jerry,
I didn't think you could afford shoes when you were growing up. 
David

[Joe S.]

Oh no,about to hear my father,your lucky to have shoes,we had to walk bare foot in the snow up hill both ways

[Mike Brooks]

After some very good discussions with some builders, I have an "Accuracy" question. Should you keep the hand drill marks in the bottom of the patch box?  - Attempt to reduce them to the drill pin holes?, or try to eliminate them? I have had all three points of view, and wanted to know what would be most accurate.  Now I know the rifle types, locations and "quality" all come into factor, but I wanted to get some feedback on this for my growth and knowledge. This it the Kibler with Bean patch box I am making now, yet I have so much more to learn, and many more rifles to make -

Is there a standard??

Thanks,

Jon

I don't worry about tool marks much. My antique guns with oct barrels have mostly round barrel channels, didn't seem to be a big deal back in the day. Lock mortises are generally "hogged" out, actually cruder that I would let get out of my shop....Dave Rase' pic is pretty typical of how most of the old boxes look that I have seen....those that are made with that technique anyway. As a "by the way" , I have already screwed the lid to my box down at the point where you're at. You should study my tutorial, maybe I could become you're new mentor.....doesn't pay much though....

[Kingsburyarms]

First - Thanks for the feedback - from all... I also build wooden ship models where we build "Gun Decks" the lower decks of a 1790 sailing ship, with all the detail, ropes, Cannons, and all the details down to thousands of deck nails and detail, including hundreds of hours of work, from metal rivets to full wood stain, just to cover up the gun deck with another above it, where 99.9% of any onlooker would never notice. A person once asked, "Why would you do all that work?, just so no one would ever see it" and a senior craftsman replied, "it's God's view that mattered" - I never took it literally, but I did take it as "if it's right, and no one sees it, then it's still right". Sometimes knowing it's accurate is enough...

Kind of a neat philosophy to live by.

Second - Mike - you ready to take on a rookie like me? I have a job, so I work for free... and I can be pretty challenging..

[Mike Brooks]

First - Thanks for the feedback - from all... I also build wooden ship models where we build "Gun Decks" the lower decks of a 1790 sailing ship, with all the detail, ropes, Cannons, and all the details down to thousands of deck nails and detail, including hundreds of hours of work, from metal rivets to full wood stain, just to cover up the gun deck with another above it, where 99.9% of any onlooker would never notice. A person once asked, "Why would you do all that work?, just so no one would ever see it" and a senior craftsman replied, "it's God's view that mattered" - I never took it literally, but I did take it as "if it's right, and no one sees it, then it's still right". Sometimes knowing it's accurate is enough...

Kind of a neat philosophy to live by.

Second - Mike - you ready to take on a rookie like me? I have a job, so I work for free... and I can be pretty challenging..

As a mentor I figured all I would have to do is sit around and do what I all ready do (what ever that is ) so you could brag on me and give me a swelled up head. I didn't realize it would take any effort on my part....

[oldtravler61]

   Jon I seriously doubt that you can't figure something out. My opion is" If someone can see it. (me/you) Do the best you can"  IMHO  Oldtravler

[Kingsburyarms]

Made it very much like David's example... Thanks all for the feedback! -

[freddiej]

The Kibler patchbox cavity looks like it was made with Forstner bits. They cut a flat bottom cavity, except that they leave that little pilot point depression.I have never seen an old original American longrifle with a completely smooth patchbox cavity bottom. "Workman-like manner" means functional, not fastidious.

[thecapgunkid]

Maybe Mr. Shumway should have opened up the patchboxes in the photo's in his books?  Hhhmmm?

The question posed is interesting because it asks whether we have documentation ( history)  rather than have a greater understanding of the mindset of the gunmakers ( culture)

Didn't these guys use drills and/or did every customer ignore or comment on every nook and cranny of his new gun?

Your question opened up a lot of thought which plunges into culture which is more interesting than history.  Thanks

Capgun

[Eric Kettenburg]

You'll find marks in most of them, although you'll also find many that are cut or scraped to a relatively drill-free floor.

If you're going to leave drill marks, forester bits probably leave the most believable markings as you'll get the outer bit "circle" as well as just a small point in the center for the pilot.  This will be closest to the old spade type center bits with a fairly small pilot point.  The modern spade bits w/ the pilot point that's like 3/8" long or more, as well as the screw auger bits with the long screw pilot points, do not leave a believable appearance.

You can also take modern spade bits and regrind the cutting edges as well as grind the pilot back quite a bit and end up with a very believable bit.

[Kingsburyarms]

I guess it just varied from maker to maker - and I agree fully that "modern" Spade bits have a much wider point for a starter hole and the screw types tear up the wood as well... I use Forstner bits so it's as close as I'll get... Fun subject to research, I have had a little late evening "can't sleep" time - so finding examples has been eye opening..