A different Tennessee

[nosrettap1958]

Look at some of these Virginian rifles and their patch box piercings. They seem to have differing wrists and combs and butt plates however.

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=13824.0

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=24770.0

[nosrettap1958]

So are we saying then that the Tennessee Rifle's distinctive style, including the beloved Soddy Daisy that we all know and love, was mostly concentrated in the Appalachian Mountains and as we move further west through Tennessee their rifles were more influenced by the Virginian schools?

[nosrettap1958]

Or, has this question already been addressed in a book I don't have but need to buy? 

[B Shipman]

Really different and interesting stuff.

[Ric27]

So are we saying then that the Tennessee Rifle's distinctive style, including the beloved Soddy Daisy that we all know and love, was mostly concentrated in the Appalachian Mountains and as we move further west through Tennessee their rifles were more influenced by the Virginian schools?

Yes, that is correct. The Appalachian School is just that, the home of the Mountain Rifle. The classic "Tennessee Rifle" may well be the best known and typifies the Southern Mountain Rifle. The mountain people were not accustom to change and expected their rifle to reflect steadfast mountain style. Everywhere else however change was constant and appealing. So you have the Tennessee Mountain rifle being produced with out interruption from around 1770 or so right up to the present. So you say, Tennessee Rifle and every one knows what you mean. Outside that geographic area other styles were developed in Tennessee. Also Some of those Mountain Gunsmiths move west as well and brought there influence with them of course.

There is no book on this westward development in Tennessee but there is a comprehensive book in the works and may be published in a year or two, hopefully.   

[WElliott]

Ric, that's a great rifle and your explanation and defense of the unique Cumberland School has been well done.

[Jesse168]

Yes, possibly but the long rifle was in North Carolina long before Tennessee and pushed west.

Correct?

You have to remember that the western bounderies of North & South Carolina went all the way to the Mississippi River until Kentucky and Tennessee  separated from them and became States in the late 1700's.

[WadePatton]

Yes, possibly but the long rifle was in North Carolina long before Tennessee and pushed west.

Correct?

You have to remember that the western bounderies of North & South Carolina went all the way to the Mississippi River until Kentucky and Tennessee  separated from them and became States in the late 1700's.

1796 if I remember correctly 

[nosrettap1958]

We would need to see additional central and western Tennessee schools and additional rifles to see just how isolated the Tennessee Mountain Rifle of Appalachia actually was, which I believe was heavily influenced by the North Carolina rifles. 

[nosrettap1958]

I don't know but that baffles the heck out of me and I do need to expand my Tennessee 'schools' library. 

[jcmcclure]

To me that rifle certainly has more Virginia influences than influences from the Western North Carolina/Appalachian schools.

There was a whole school of TN gun builders from the period of the 1790's through the first quarter of the 19th century that build guns of this style. What Ric has done here is an earlier form (1790's) of such a rifle. These guns are really a school of their own, with some calling them the Cumberland School. Thomas Simpson was from this school and a later student of the school was Jacob Young, the builder of the William Whitley Rifle, William Wade Woodfork rifle, and two other known survivors. Of all of these Tennessee built guns, accept one iron mounted rifle with a woodbox built by Young, they are brass mounted with captured lid boxes.

Certainly you can see the influence of Virginia in those early rifles of Simpson and Young, but they are Tennesse built rifles. There are other examples of this school of guns that were also build along the Cumberland and Bluegrass Region of Kentucky. The Bryan rifles of Bryans Station in Lexington would be a good Kentucky Example of the later school.

Tennessee like Kentucky is a long east to west state...the regions of east TN/KY are different from the middle and west geographically as they are culturally. This is just as true now as it was then, thus the variation of this school of this middle TN gun verses those that would be seen the east TN guns.

[bones92]

Regardless of the particular strain of pedigree, it is a beautiful rifle..

[n stephenson]

JCMCCLURE, Is correct, this Cumberland school has just,  in the last few years ,been recognized and researched. As time goes on there will hopefully be more of these rifles and, info about the makers will surface. Casey McClure has a LOT of first hand knowledge about these rifles . As the former curator of the William Whitley  house. He has handled and studied these rifles probably as much as anyone. I`m glad the he also pointed out the difference between the Tenn. builders and those of Kentucky. They probably had some connections yet were different. Thanks Casey

[Mike Brooks]

There isn't much published information on TN guns like this. They remind me a lot of the KY made rifles that Shelby Galien just did a book on, they are very similar in many respects.

[Ric27]

I don't know but that baffles the heck out of me and I do need to expand my Tennessee 'schools' library.

I'm not yet sure what it is that is baffling you but let me point out again that the really unique aspect of the East Tennessee Rifle and all it's cousins in the mountains of Va., NC., SC., Ga., is that it changed very little in stock architecture over time. The second truly unique factor is they remained in production after the muzzleloader was rendered obsolete in the rest of North America. This was due to the isolation the imposed on the mountain people by the very mountains they live in. This discussion of things going on in other part of the State of Tennessee is in no way dismissive of the mountain rifles place on the frontier or anywhere else. So in, the iconic Tennessee Rifle has staked it's place in the lore of the longrifle by steadfast tenacity reflective of the people who made and use them.   

[nosrettap1958]

I found this on the internet concerning the Tennessee Rifle. Slim pickings considering all the books that have been written about other states and their rifle development.

TENNESSEE RIFLES By Robin C. Hale A paper presented at the Fall, 1970 meeting of the American Society of Arms Collectors at Houston, Texas

This is particularly interesting.

"Many collectors think of the typical Tennessee rifle as one which is relatively plain, is iron-mounted, and has a banana-shaped patchbox or sometimes a grease-hole in the buttstock. This is true regarding many of the rifles made in the upper East Tennessee counties and to a lesser extent, or rifles made elsewhere in East Tennessee. To consider this style of rifle as typical of all Tennessee rifles, however, would be like considering the distinctive Bedford County rifles as typical examples of Pennsylvania "Kentuckies." Later on, we will look at photographs of a number of rifles from East and Middle Tennessee, including some which vary from the able common to the upper East Tennessee region."

[Ric27]

Good Find Crawdad, I had not seen this before.

[nosrettap1958]

Thanks Ric!!!! 

A real shame that there is such a lack of printed information about these iconic rifles.

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

  ... Rumor at the TN-KY rifle show back in the spring was that a full color book on TENNESSEE rifles is in the works ...... I do hope   that someone has and will use all the photos that Robin Hale had ..... Regards, CC Fiddler .....

[Ric27]

... Rumor at the TN-KY rifle show back in the spring was that a full color book on TENNESSEE rifles is in the works ...... I do hope   that someone has and will use all the photos that Robin Hale had ..... Regards, CC Fiddler .....

This is true, but the book is a major undertaking and wide in scope and will not be published soon. I talked with the author recently and told it would be 2yrs before the book was out.

[TN Longhunter]

I would be willing to preorder to get a copy as soon as printed. I love the KY Longrifles books and hope the Tennessee one will be as good.

[bama]

Ric is doing very nice work and it defiantly is historically correct for what is becoming known as the Cumberland school of gunsmiths. Thomas Simpson and Jacob Young are two of the principal smiths of this school. Mel Hankla has done a lot of research on these two smiths and there is a book in the works that is going to shed more light on this school that will change how Tennessee rifles are viewed in the future. There are high art rifles that were made in Tennessee that in the 1790's and early 1800's that were nicely carved, brass mounted with silver inlays and overlaid silver on brass decorated rifles. I do agree that these very talented smiths learned their craft problably in Viginia and then migrated into Tennessee and brought the craft with them. But both of these smiths rifles have design features that are not seen on any Virginia or Carolina guns or anybody else's guns. What you do see are some of thier design features being used slightly modified by later period smiths. This is going to be a very interesting area as more info becomes available.

[Majorjoel]

Here are a few pictures of another fine rifle made by Jacob Young that show some of the artistic details he used.
http://www.kellykinzleantiques.com/long-rifle-by-jacob-young.html

[TN Longhunter]

Here are a few pictures of another fine rifle made by Jacob Young that show some of the artistic details he used.
http://www.kellykinzleantiques.com/long-rifle-by-jacob-young.html

After viewing this incredible rifle I see the type Ric needs to work on next. 

Hope I'm not putting too much pressure on you Buddy!

[nosrettap1958]

That is one beautiful rifle, TN Longhunter.   

And WE NEED THAT BOOK!!!!!