BHN tolerance for bullet casters

[jrubin]

For those of you who collect lead to make roundball and actually measure purity with regard to hardness,   (please dont respond to this thread with finger nail tests or pencil scratches)

Given a BHN of 5 for pure lead.    At what point do you decide that your batch is too hard (antimony, tin or otherwise) which would require you to jettison or cut with pure lead to bring it back down to the desired BHN.  6,7,8?

Nobody here is melting down range scrap to make roundball and expecting 5 where collections can contain a mixture as high as 11 to 18 downrange.  Wheelweights are as high as 9

This would also assume that you own one of the two lead hardness testers on the market.

My next movie covers some comprehensive testing of lead samples.

[deepcreekdale]

I got this from a member of a club I used to shoot with years ago. You just press the tip of the pencil into the metal you want to test. I am sure it is not Mil Spec but it works great for checking what you might have. It is obviously a bit dated as modern wheel weights no longer have lead in them from what I understand. ( I used to own a motorcycle shop and the wheel weights were way too hard to make into bullets, let alone round balls.)

Pencil Hardness vs. lead alloy hardness
Pencil        BHN       Alloy
6B             4-5        pure lead
5B             7-8        40:1 lead-tin, plumbers lead
4B             9           25:1 lead-tin
3B             10         20:1 lead-tin
2B             11-12    range scrap, wheel weights
B               13         Wheel weights with 2% tin, quenched range scrap
HB             14-15    Lyman # 2 alloy, 1:1 linotype lead
F                16-18   commercial cast bullets

[deepcreekdale]

Ooops. sorry I didn't see your statement about not replying with pencil scratches. Maybe someone else can use the info. I see your question was when to not use the metal, not how to check it. I never use anything except pure lead for casting round balls, either my own lead recovered or clean metal from a known source.

[jrubin]

Apparently, this is not a popular topic, anyway, here is the test that id conducted on the lead, given a control sample.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

The problem with using scrounged lead for casting round balls for muzzleloading guns is the unknown alloy.  And consequently, its hardness.  For a muzzleloading rifle especially, dead soft pure lead is all I will use.  I use metal of know purity, and even so, tested it with my Lee hardness tester.  It doesn't even register on Lee's chart, being a BHN of less than 8.  So to answer your question as best I can, use lead that doesn't register on Lee's chart, and it will be soft enough for your purpose.
Incidentally, our wheel weights (North Central BC) is BHN 11-12, and they all are lead alloy, even the ones with zinc included.  NEVER USE WW WITH A 'Z' MARKED.  It will destroy your mix and the pot in which you have melted it.  You will never be free from zinc from that day onward.
I was fortunate, a couple years ago, to have a friend whose task it was to remove all of the lead sheeting from an entire x-ray lab...a whole floor!  So he gave me around 700 pounds of the most beautifully soft lead there is which I cast, over a period of a couple days, into 1 pound ingots.

[T*O*F]

As an aside, I used to own a repair shop and we did a lot of tire work.  When I closed, I had 2 five gal. buckets of good quality wheel weights as well as 10 boxes of new ones.  I gleaned thru them all and removed all of the questionable ones, usually from foreign cars, and melted them into ingots.  I cast them into round balls to be used in my smoothbores and sized the patching material accordingly.  They are fine for that purpose.  They could all be scratched with a thumbnail.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I know for a fact that American wheel weights are often of pure lead, while Canuck weights are alloyed, and BHN 12.  I told one of my American friends he was full of bunk when he told me wheel weights were soft lead, so he sent me some...he was right!

[JCKelly]

A common thing to harden lead with is antimony, for a variety of uses.

Don't recall where I got the lead years ago, but - If you cast a decent size ingot into a very hot iron mould so that it cools slowly, you can see nice crystals growing in the center, in the last metal to freeze. Those are antimony, or at least high in antimony. Ya ain't got pure lead there. 

[Smoketown]

Because I'm used to a micrometer and Vernier calipers, I prefer the Saeco Lead Hardness Tester.   

I used it a LOT for pistol and rifle bullet casting.

I also wound up with 25 kilos (that's how it was packaged) of "certified" pure lead from Fischer Scientific that was supposed to be used for assaying gold.   

It didn't shoot any better or worse than material tested by the "thumbnail method". (Leupold Vari-X III 3.5x10 on a .50 cal. T/C Hawken @ 50 yds.)

Anything harder than that went into the cast bullet bucket. 

With the right patching and a properly crowned barrel, one could even shoot a steel ball bearing. 

(Look for photos of "thumb crowned barrels" as Daryl does it.) 

Cheers,
Smoketown

[hanshi]

I don't test any of the metals for hardness.  The lead I have is dead soft, anyway, and that's what counts.  But I also use WW in the smoothbore.  These WW go back  about 45 years when I use to cast lots of handgun bullets.  Back then they were a known quantity with no zinc and such.  I must still have a couple hundred pounds of the stuff left.  Soft lead is reserved for rifles but the smoothbore gets WW.

[deepcreekdale]

Used wheel weights containing lead are now classified as Hazardous Waste by the EPA. (Is there some sort of problem with people eating them?) That complicates things for many shops with all sorts of bureaucratic entanglements and fees. It is not unusual to find wheel weights made of pure zinc or even cast iron of some type with no lead at all. I sold my motorcycle shop in 2007 and most motorcycle wheel weights that could be purchased through suppliers even thenwere some sort of mystery metal, but definitely not lead. You could hit them with a hammer and it would barely make a dent. Like everyone else, I used to cadge buckets of used wheel weights and cast away. I am afraid those days will be gone before long. In my M/Ler's I will only cast with pure lead from a known source. In my bullet shooting M/Lers, I sometimes want a little more hardness but still use known alloys for repeatability.

[hanshi]

Used wheel weights containing lead are now classified as Hazardous Waste by the EPA. (Is there some sort of problem with people eating them?)

Does make you wonder, doesn't it?

[Tim Ault]

What is your testing trying to accomplish ? That a pure lead is more accurate than an alloy ? Easier to load ? Or ?  In my experience  I have found zero difference in accuracy between pure cast lead or a lead alloy  be it tin or antimony or both in the case of  stick on or clip on WW  or range scrap for that matter  . Do they drop at different sizes  sure within 1-2 thou. With each alloy same with weight but as long as your not mixing  the casted lots  they all are the same .

[hanshi]

I don't know if your post was directed to me, but I'll respond just the same.  My Lee mold drops lead balls that measure .600" exactly.  Cast from old WW they measure about .606" and I can't see any difference in POI.  My .62 has a fairly tight bore and patching a .606" ball is an exercise in persistence; even the lead .600" ball is tight with a .010"-.012" patch.  Bare ball loads are very easy to seat and deer accurate out to 50 yards or so.  The lead ball weighs around 230 grains while the WW ball is about 220 grns or a bit less.  I have a .590" mold that drops ball that are easy to patch with .015" to .020" ticking; but I haven't finished testing prb loads as yet with either size ball.

[smylee grouch]

Hanshi: I hope that was a typo(220 gr. for a .600 ball), my 600 gets around 320 or so. 

[Tim Ault]

I don't know if your post was directed to me, but I'll respond just the same.  My Lee mold drops lead balls that measure .600" exactly.  Cast from old WW they measure about .606" and I can't see any difference in POI.  My .62 has a fairly tight bore and patching a .606" ball is an exercise in persistence; even the lead .600" ball is tight with a .010"-.012" patch.  Bare ball loads are very easy to seat and deer accurate out to 50 yards or so.  The lead ball weighs around 230 grains while the WW ball is about 220 grns or a bit less.  I have a .590" mold that drops ball that are easy to patch with .015" to .020" ticking; but I haven't finished testing prb loads as yet with either size ball.

 
   No hanshi it was to the original poster of this thread . I'm surprised you get 6 thou growth using WW alloy   Mine is normally about half that . But all casters do things a little different  than each other and results do vary . 

[hanshi]

Sorry,  My senior moments/days/weeks are getting more and more frequent.  I did indeed mean to type 330 and 320.  I need more sleep.....or a drink.

[smylee grouch]

I have lots of those senior moments too, I think its the medication.   

[AwwNaww]

I do a fair amount of bullet casting for cartridge firearms. Generally, the lore has been that the stick on (self adhesive) wheel weights are nearly pure lead and the crimp/clip ons are hardened with antimony (or nowadays Zinc). I have found that to be true for the wheel weights that I have gotten. Clip on weights produce balls that are harder to seat probably due both to size increase and to hardness. I try to mostly melt the stick on weights for round ball shooting for that reason. I can't say one has been more accurate than the other.

But now that lead wheel weights are being fazed out, more and more zinc is used (even the stick on) and that sucks.

[jrubin]

A friend of mine at an automotive shop is in possession of an oil drum full of wheel weights, it would be worth taking a sample to see what the lead hardness is from a random collection

[Daryl]

You can usually tell just by looking at them, if they are the old WW alloy, or if they are zinc, iron, etc. Handling them and looking at markings should also tell you.

If in doubt, do not mix with them with a known alloy. The iron ones will not hurt anything - your lead pot will not melt them, zinc is poisonous to your pot and moulds.

I did read an article of a guy casting straight zinc bullets though, however they did not shoot well & were exceptionally light in weight. His Iron block moulds were ruined for casting lead after that.

[P.W.Berkuta]

Apparently, this is not a popular topic, anyway, here is the test that id conducted on the lead, given a control sample.

Jrubin - I appreciate your annalists of the lead balls and as an engineer I did glean the value of the video. I have the Lee lead tester and find it a little difficult to use and get repeated consistency. My uncle has the Seaco and he like it very much. If shooting a smoothbore pretty much any hardness of lead will do with the right patch thickness. Thanks for the video .

[Daryl]

The very best brinel tester was made by Veral Smith of "Lead Bullet Technologies".

I do not know if they are still made, but gave a direct readout of the projectile's brinel - no magnifiers and no cross reference charts needed

[jrubin]

The only other one I know of on the market is by SAECO, and by the price they are quite proud of it.

https://www.brownells.com/reloading/bullet-casting/casting-furnaces-amp-accessories/lead-hardness-tester-prod42977.aspx

[Daryl]

$170.00 Us, not bad. The Smith brinel tester was $125.00 back in the 90's. I'd suggest if you can find one for $200.00, you should buy it.