Author Topic: Stock Shaping  (Read 14534 times)

n stephenson

  • Guest
Stock Shaping
« on: July 23, 2017, 05:17:11 PM »
I`ve noticed that there seems to always be discussions about , inletting, tool sharpening, lock problems, and tons of other great topics related to gun building. The wealth of knowledge here, always results in the person getting a couple of tried and true methods that work. What led me to post this topic is, I was recently asked by a fellow that was commissioning a rifle from me what the hardest part of gunbuilding  was to learn. I told him the hardest part for me to teach a student was, shaping. Inletting is a very important skill in gunbuilding for sure and if done gappy will ruin the most beautifully shaped stock. I don't know if it is the availability of kits and, precarved stocks  that make people avoid learning how to shape or not. Maybe it`s the REAL fear of jumping on an expensive stock blank and, ruining it. Whatever the reason for avoidance ,there needs to be a change of mindset in new builders ,when it comes to shaping. If some builders will share, not the "here`s the only correct way to shape" but give some ideas to newcomers on ways to get experience shaping without breaking the bank. One alternative is to get cheap or free wood from sawmills , scraps from building sites etc. I realize that this may be pine or other types of wood, but, were talking about practice shaping . When a student comes to me and wants to learn how to build guns , I only allow them to build 1 rifle/gun from a kit. Kits are a great way to learn parts placement , drilling holes, basic set up, etc. With shaping being a HUGE part of actual rifle building ,I refuse to let them avoid it. The freedom one gets from being able to shape totally opens the door to really being able to explore any gunbuilding interest you may have. I just feel that this is a topic that needs to be addressed. If we really want to keep this sport alive ,and , have the future masters , then learning shaping is a MUST!! Any advise to the newcomers is what I`m asking for.      Thanks Nate

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Stock Shaping
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2017, 05:33:57 PM »
The most important part of shaping is handling alot of originals. Then applying what you see too the wood, that's the hard part. Some people can do it, some can't.
 I built 4 precarves before I went to my first blank. I actually got the gun I was after once I went with a blank. I still build the occasional kit, but it's not very enjoyable anymore.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Ed Wenger

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2457
Re: Stock Shaping
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2017, 06:06:19 PM »
Good topic, Nate.  I clearly remember the intimidation of building a gun from a blank, and the sense of accomplishment when finished.

Agree 100% with Mike, seeing, studying, handling original pieces is extremely helpful and important. 

Mike's tutorial here on ALR is an excellent aid in helping to take the plunge in building from a blank (if the photos are still there!).  A great DVD on stock shaping by Mark Silver is available from Pioneer Videos.  Mark does a good bit of stock shaping with planes and spoke shaves, and has a neat approach to the process.  I would highly recommend it.

One of the things that has helped me a great deal, which I learned from Jack Brooks, is to work the stock in an octagonal manner.  Kind of difficult to explain without seeing it, but work a side flat, upper and lower angles, and top and bottom flat.  Do the same on each side of the blank. Most of the work is done with planes and shaves, final shaping is done with rasps.

I also do a lot of shaping to the stock before I inlet things like the lock, trigger plate, and trigger.  After the barrel and tang are inlet, I layout where the lock goes, determine the trigger location, then inlet the butt piece.  After that, I'll inlet the entry thimble, which enables me to establish the underline of the stock from the thimble to the butt piece, then I go back and inlet the lock, trigger plate, and trigger.  This might be a little different than what a lot of people do, but I feel establishing that lower line is very helpful in creating a nice flow to the piece.

There's many ways to tackle a blank build, but what ever the method, I would highly encourage anyone to take the plunge.  I think you'll answer a lot of questions along the way, and in the end, you'll be a better builder for it.

       Ed
Ed Wenger

somehippy

  • Guest
Re: Stock Shaping
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2017, 06:33:18 PM »
I ordered a "kit" two years ago, and basically it was just a learning template as to where things go and how they work, which is great since I'd never really seen one of these guns in person.   I've  messed up just about everything I could, and redid the whole thing 3 times and suffered a multitude of lock problems and it still ain't shooting, but I did learn a lot... However I started another from a blank and feel way more confident in things turning out better, just having more control from the start, barrel in letting is what had me worried but it wasn't bad at all, the ramrod hole has me a bit nervous, but Im optimistic about inletting the lock.  I wish I would have just bought a blank and parts to start with the first time....

Offline oldtravler61

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4413
  • We all make mistakes.
Re: Stock Shaping
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2017, 06:35:26 PM »
  Nate this is a good topic. The architecture/lines of a longrifle is hard to learn. Well it has been for me. That is why I like to attend the shows. You see so many fine guns.
 Two things I will add is for the new builder. #1 is pick a particular style an study it's outline an the fine points. Lock style, barrel swamp or straight. Butt plate, trigger guard that is correct not just close to it.
  #2 is acquire a contemporary or original that you can get a hands on feel an study.
  Books cds,dvds are ok. But they don't usually show the fine contours of an actual gun. IMHO. A top view, bottom picture is rarely shown. Usually only the side views. Which are helpful but lack in showing the slimness of the the gun.
  To me that is one reason why so many new builders leave to much wood. Jm2c  Oldtravler

Offline bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4555
Re: Stock Shaping
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2017, 06:55:02 PM »
A Chambers kit was very helpful to me in getting an eye for the shaping when working from a blank. Also, I recommend getting the RCA books . The key measurements included along with the photos are enlightening.

Offline Scota4570

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2393
Re: Stock Shaping
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2017, 07:04:58 PM »
I find building from a blank less frustrating than many pre-carves.  Don't let it intimidate you.  Several times I have gotten pre-carves that are defective and a gun stock is impossible.  Not just ML stocks too.   A blank makes it easier to measure and then cut based on the plan.  Once you have a square gun, removing the unnecessary wood is not a huge deal.  Mind your center lines and work from the plan.  I've seen  videos of guys who do it totally free hand by eye and feel.  I can't do that.   I can copy by feel,  but need to have the original to hold.  I guess that is where the experience handling originals comes in.   

Offline Mauser06

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 932
Re: Stock Shaping
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2017, 07:38:11 PM »
Awesome post and much appreciated!!



I've done one precarve....I was VERY intimidated by shaping it...it required a fair bit of wood removal and re-design for what I was after....

After it was done...I realized I have a lot to learn...and better tools are probably going to be helpful...but, my next 3 builds are in line and all 3 are blanks.


To me, I found that shaping was the most enjoyable part of the build.  I just enjoyed it.   I hope to turn out 3 items that at least resemble guns with these 3 planks I have....

My problem is getting my paws on originals or even good contemporary pieces is nearly Impossible. My work schedule just doesn't allow me to make shows and to travel around right now...





Keep the tips coming!!

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19524
Re: Stock Shaping
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2017, 08:22:43 PM »
Handling originals helps but having an original is better.  I have a couple beaters. One is a 1760s to 1770s iron mounted Liege rifle-built smoothbore. Perfect for understanding the architecture of an early rifle. It's been converted to percussion and was made into a half stock so it was quite affordable. Another is a late percussion fullstock small caliber rifle, probably 1840 to 1850 that my wife bought at an antique shop for $150. So it can be done.

Very few new builders think to practice anything before digging in to an expensive kit. It's easy to take a piece of hard firewood, practice planing it flat, and inlet the lock. Cost is less than $5. No need and better learning than buying a finish planed piece of hardwood. Same is true for the whole lock to wrist area. A decent piece of firewood can be hand-sawn and planed flat, cut to profile, lock inletted, and the whole area shaped from the "barrel" back.

Not many musicians or athletes would try to perform or compete without practicing, bug many think they can get a book, watch a video, check out YouTube, and be satisfied with their first build.
Andover, Vermont

n stephenson

  • Guest
Re: Stock Shaping
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2017, 08:27:30 PM »
Everyone has made some GOOD points. Mike made a huge statement "look at originals " a very important point. Like oldtravler said , pick a style you like and copy it , that way your actually trying to shape it to a known shape and, you can see where you`re off .Also put your hands on good examples. When we look at the beautiful iron mounted rifle that Ed posted , we can see the fruits of being a competent stock shaper. That rifle could only be accomplished ,by Ed`s vision and design expertise being applied, by the ability of him to shape what he had in mind out of a blank, true rifle building. I do believe in practice shaping on boards , it helps you learn  how different tools perform and, something that is hardly ever mentioned in anything on the subject . The understanding of WOOD GRAIN is absolutely paramount if one ever hopes to be even mediocre at shaping. You can read , and watch videos all day , and they are VERY informative but , the only true way to learn shaping and wood grain is through practice. Get some tools ,some scraps, a target shape to go for, and go at it !  You`ll figure a lot out ,while your doing it. Make it fun ! It will open the door to gunbuilding freedom and, like everyone has stated you will look back and go , why didn't I do this sooner? Sorry Rich, I was posting at the same time as you , we both say practice!
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 08:32:28 PM by n stephenson »

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: Stock Shaping
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2017, 09:46:55 PM »
 In looking at a lot of originals and the ones made today I found that the biggest mistake in the shaping was the forearm and where the forearm meets the lock panels is left to square on the contemporary guns.   I found the solution to this is to draw a set of templates for the forearm.   I paste these templates on a thin piece of wood or plastic and check the shape of the forearm at a couple different places. I mark the center of each template and match them to the center line of the stock blank.  Especially the section just ahead of the lock panels. Most guns now do not extend the roundness of the stock far enough towards the lock panels.  The butt stock is more of a matter of taste and style. One thing that causes a lot of trouble is a entree thimble that is too wide.  That forces the square look at that point. unless the entree thimble has an extension with a lot of curve.
    Long answer but that is it.  I haven't built a kit since 1963 but everybody should build at least one. It is good practice.
 
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 10:03:40 PM by jerrywh »
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline PPatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2456
Re: Stock Shaping
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2017, 09:58:37 PM »
My favorite part is the shaping. After all the preliminary work on the metal and getting it inlet, with all that incurs, I finally get to tease that form out of the wood.

I have no set method for doing it, haven't really completed that many guns, but I have quite a bit of woodworking experience from the past. With a gun my general method is to begin at the butt and move forward, with a little skipping around here and there. You've got the butt plate, lock and triggers to guide you in the shaping, in fact those elements were put where they are because you were thinking of the final form of the gun, its shape, during the planning of the piece.

Not having a plan on paper, or at least detailed sketches, and therefore not having a clear idea where the various working components will go in relation to that ideal shape you have in your head, is a mistake. Unless, of course, you have years of experience building, anyone who has been building for a while in a specific style would probably dive right in on a stock blank with a clear idea of where they are going. If you are a beginner though, doing your research and planning is a must, and like Mike B. mentioned, seeing and handling the old guns is sure to boost your understanding of their form.

Planning is good, and rewarding, cutting into that blank can be daunting if you're not pretty sure of what you are after. Cut you must, but before you do have that shape firmly in mind, understand too how one area of the gun relates to the other, and how form follows function. Butt, wrist, lock area, forearm, muzzle area, all must flow together to make the whole, think of it as sculpture. The next opportunity you have for handling the old guns, or examining a nice contemporary, keep that in mind as you look the old girl over. When you know you will be getting the opportunity to view guns make a list of questions for yourself beforehand - then you will be doing "directed" looking. It is very easy to look at something and not actually see it, one reason for that is being new to the game, you simply don't know what to look for or even know what questions to ask. "How did this maker connect all the various elements of this gun to make a whole?" "What tools would I use to do that, how would I employ the tool?" Going to look at guns, be prepared.

In shaping there is an inescapable logic to things because of all the working components that go into making a firearm, your job as the builder is to connect and surround those components with an eye pleasing form, one thing flowing into the next with an eye to beauty. Decoration is just stuff on top of that.

Long winded aren't I...

dave

« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 10:06:04 PM by PPatch »
Dave Parks   /   Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Stock Shaping
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2017, 10:53:04 PM »
BOOKS! you can't have enough books. Since I've been sitting in a recliner for the past 5 weeks there is a huge mountain of books piled willy-nilly on my coffee table. Even if you've done this for more than 30 years you must always continue to study.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19524
Re: Stock Shaping
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2017, 11:21:38 PM »
In looking at a lot of originals and the ones made today I found that the biggest mistake in the shaping was the forearm and where the forearm meets the lock panels is left to square on the contemporary guns.   I found the solution to this is to draw a set of templates for the forearm.   I paste these templates on a thin piece of wood or plastic and check the shape of the forearm at a couple different places. I mark the center of each template and match them to the center line of the stock blank.  Especially the section just ahead of the lock panels. Most guns now do not extend the roundness of the stock far enough towards the lock panels. 
 

So true.  I recently handled some fine contemporary rifles by a guy who can REALLY carve.  Wow v gig to get better!  But his forearms were more oblong than round. I remember Chuck Dixon did as much evaluation with his hands as with his eyes, especially the forearm and lock panels and wrist.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Dwshotwell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 269
Re: Stock Shaping
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2017, 11:35:20 PM »
Thank you for posting this. As a beginner it is much appreciated. For me, with limited experience, even gearing up to remove the excess wood on my pre-carve that I'm working with has been intimidating.

As I've been thinking about next projects, one idea I've toyed with is trying to build from a blank, but using furniture and a lock for which there are pre-carved stocks available. That way, if the blank doesn't work out, I can always turn around and get a pre-carved stock and mount the same stuff. This seems to lessen the intimidation a bit. All I'd be out is the price of the uncarved blank if I mess it up.

One question... where are the best places to go to get actual hand-on experience handling originals. I've reading books and studying pictures, but where can I go to actually put my mitts on the real deal?

Thank you.
David Shotwell

Offline Eric Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 775
Re: Stock Shaping
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2017, 12:14:32 AM »
BOOKS! you can't have enough books. Since I've been sitting in a recliner for the past 5 weeks there is a huge mountain of books piled willy-nilly on my coffee table. Even if you've done this for more than 30 years you must always continue to study.


Yeap!
Eric Smith

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Stock Shaping
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2017, 12:47:58 AM »
Thank you for posting this. As a beginner it is much appreciated. For me, with limited experience, even gearing up to remove the excess wood on my pre-carve that I'm working with has been intimidating.

As I've been thinking about next projects, one idea I've toyed with is trying to build from a blank, but using furniture and a lock for which there are pre-carved stocks available. That way, if the blank doesn't work out, I can always turn around and get a pre-carved stock and mount the same stuff. This seems to lessen the intimidation a bit. All I'd be out is the price of the uncarved blank if I mess it up.

One question... where are the best places to go to get actual hand-on experience handling originals. I've reading books and studying pictures, but where can I go to actually put my mitts on the real deal?

Thank you.
They got things called gunshows.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Eric Krewson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2255
Re: Stock Shaping
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2017, 02:28:12 AM »
I did two from a blank before I did a precarve, my precarve was cut so lopsided I don't think I could have finished it if I didn't have the building from a blank experience, it was a mess.

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7014
Re: Stock Shaping
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2017, 03:04:24 AM »
Hi Folks,
For the last 2 years, I demonstrated stock shaping around the lock area at Dixons.  I showed how to work a squared stock down around the lock and wrist area to create the proper profiles.  This year, I am going to show how to cut the lock moldings and beavertails after shaping the wrist.  I am looking forward to seeing many of you.

dave 
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: Stock Shaping
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2017, 03:37:17 AM »
 I want to add this. When shaping the forearm don't try and follow the swamped barrel. The forearm should be a straight tapper to the muzzle.  I keep the forearm straight by using a 3" wide sanding board diagonally down the forearm when finishing. This keeps out the ripples and makes it nice and straight.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline Dave B

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3132
Re: Stock Shaping
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2017, 03:42:33 AM »
The gun shows they have out west have very few long rifles to see let alone nice orginials. Only a few specific shows may you actually see a long rifle worth examining. At least that has been my experience here in Washington state
Dave Blaisdell

Offline oldtravler61

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4413
  • We all make mistakes.
Re: Stock Shaping
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2017, 03:51:27 AM »
  As far as gun shows. You have to go to the ones that feature longrifles. The rest don't matter!
 Two very good shows are the CLA in Lexington Kentucky this August 19-20 th. The Tennessee show in April in Knoxville. There are others but these two are exceptional shows IMHO. Oldtravler

Offline Ray Settanta

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 193
Re: Stock Shaping
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2017, 04:26:59 AM »
Unfortunately I cannot get out to the shows like Dixon's or the ones in TN or Ohio or Kentucky. I have not seen any longrifles at any of the shows in my area. Sure, TC, Traditions or CVA Hawkins of course are all over the place but no original longrifles. I only have one original rifle so everything I make will have to look like a Southern Mountain rifle. ;D  Do you think I can use the same Southern stock architecture and just change the furniture to match the different Pennsylvania schools? ;D

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19524
Re: Stock Shaping
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2017, 05:10:36 AM »
Quote from: Ray Settanta link=topic=44967.msg440969#msg440969 date=
I only have one original rifle so everything I make will have to look like a Southern Mountain rifle. ;D  Do you think I can use the same Southern stock architecture and just change the furniture to match the different Pennsylvania schools? ;D

You wouldn't be the first!
Andover, Vermont

Offline thecapgunkid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1111
  • Matthew 25:40
Re: Stock Shaping
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2017, 12:54:29 PM »
This is a great post, if for no other reason than pulling people to the keyboard.

The biggest deterrent to using a blank I have felt  is the lack of tools.  The expense and time it takes to bring them home with you tends to be more intimidating to the new guy.