Stock Shaping

[Nordnecker]

Hi Folks,
For the last 2 years, I demonstrated stock shaping around the lock area at Dixons.  I showed how to work a squared stock down around the lock and wrist area to create the proper profiles.  This year, I am going to show how to cut the lock moldings and beavertails after shaping the wrist.  I am looking forward to seeing many of you.

dave

I was there for your demo and when you described the pitfall of ending up with those concave outlines (around the back of the lock panel) it really resounded with me. Only someone who's "been there and done that" can appreciate what you said.
One tiny detail I have noticed on some originals a very fine scribed line around the lock panel. Not a molding line, but more like a knife cut right at the intersection of the flat of the lock panel and the curve of the wrist. I wanted to talk about this but the opportunity passed and I forgot about it until now.
These days, most of us use a pencil to mark out details. A pencil mark is only on the surface and as soon as you remove any wood that mark is gone. A scribed or cut line goes beneath the surface and can stand up to some wood removal and still show. This seams like an obvious advantage over the easily removed pencil mark.
I'd like to see your demo but I'm not going to Dixon's this year.

[flehto]

To start, the actual stock outline has to be correct and judging from the many LRs shown on various websites, this doesn't happen w/ many 1-4 gun builders who start w/ a blank......this is the one advantage of some precarves w/ the right outline. If the outline is correct, bandsawing on the line leaves very little wood to be removed.....and after rough rounding of the shapes, the result is nearly equal to the wood left on most precarves.

Because building MLers wasn't my prime interest, I didn't attend any shows displaying originals and my early work did suffer, but the books showing originals, especially the RCA vols 1 &2, had to suffice. Also, attending the seminars and classes taught by experienced builders didn't happen and this I regret to this day.   Interpreting the pics takes a lot of studying and finally the correct shapes happened.....but it still took too long. ALR was a big help by displaying the work of  experienced builders. The  builders who live in the northern part of the east Coast certainly have a big advantage by having easier access to viewing originals........Fred

[rich pierce]

Capgun, the only specialty tool you really need to go out and get to build from a blank is a ramrod drill if you are a hobby builder with patience and no disabilities. It really is possible to cut a blank to profile using a rip saw and a frame saw. I have to take some breaks but can do it. I allow an extra 1/16" for planing it smooth and square.  On the other hand there are several barrel jnletters who would inlet your barrel, drill the ramrod hole, and cut your blank to profile.  When it comes to shaping, gouges, a scrub plane, drawknife, and spokeshave do the work. It adds hours to the build but it's a hobby. Time spent is pleasurable.

[ltdann]

The gun shows they have out west have very few long rifles to see let alone nice orginials. Only a few specific shows may you actually see a long rifle worth examining. At least that has been my experience here in Washington state

I'd love to start from a blank, but as DaveB says, the gun shows out west are MUCH different from the ones you folks describe, so studying originals that way is out.  Nor is flying to the Midwest or the right coast really an option.

By and large, I understand the theory and know how it should look and have the skills and tools to get there.  Photo's were a great help until PB pulled the plug.

What I can't figure out is how to calculate the dimensions, i.e. LOP, drop at the heel, drop @ comb, cast off or on, butt height and width, etc.

Is that in a book somewhere?  I mean if I have plans, I can get there.  The TOW plans are sorta ok, but I really was hoping for a bit more.

Any advice?

[Mike Brooks]

This is a great post, if for no other reason than pulling people to the keyboard.

The biggest deterrent to using a blank I have felt  is the lack of tools.  The expense and time it takes to bring them home with you tends to be more intimidating to the new guy.

Other than a band saw I don't think there is any difference in tools.

[rich pierce]

What I can't figure out is how to calculate the dimensions, i.e. LOP, drop at the heel, drop @ comb, cast off or on, butt height and width, etc.

Is that in a book somewhere?  I mean if I have plans, I can get there.  The TOW plans are sorta ok, but I really was hoping for a bit more.

Any advice?

I will try to dig out posts on making a plan or blueprint. There have been many. Rifles of Colonial America has dimensions as do other books.  Butt height and width are determined by the buttplate. Length of pull, drop at comb and butt should be adjusted to fit the customer.

[Mauser06]

Ltdan, Rifles of Colonial America has several dimensions and photos of many known originals...I believe around 100 rifles(off the top of my head)  if you buy both volumes.  Not cheap..but the dimensions and photos are very helpful. 

[Mike Brooks]

Ltdan, Rifles of Colonial America has several dimensions and photos of many known originals...I believe around 100 rifles(off the top of my head)  if you buy both volumes.  Not cheap..but the dimensions and photos are very helpful.

$50 per volume ain't cheap? It's cheap in the world I live in. Can't feed a family of 4 at mcdonalds for $50. What a bunch of cheapos...

[ltdann]

LOL!  I found volume 1 on TOW for $59, but no volume 2.  Amazon has both for $270 and that's a bunch of cheeseburgers!

Interestingly, I hadn't realized Schumway wrote a book on  Jaegers, which is my next rifle....so that kinda works out.

[Eric Krewson]

If you make one of these simple tools you can calculate drop and pull, 1/4" of cast off works for most folk.

Adjustable try stock;





Adjust it until you can close your eyes, shoulder the "gun", open your eyes and be looking down properly aligned sights. Take measurements and transfer them to your stock blank, works every time. 

[rich pierce]

Nice try stock. Do you have a lefty version with the wing nut on the other side?  Just kidding. That's an easy one to make.

[ltdann]

If you make one of these simple tools you can calculate drop and pull, 1/4" of cast off works for most folk.

Adjustable try stock;





Adjust it until you can close your eyes, shoulder the "gun", open your eyes and be looking down properly aligned sights. Take measurements and transfer them to your stock blank, works every time.

Why, that's genius!

[Cody Tetachuk]

BOOKS! you can't have enough books. Since I've been sitting in a recliner for the past 5 weeks there is a huge mountain of books piled willy-nilly on my coffee table. Even if you've done this for more than 30 years you must always continue to study.

Very true. If you look at true experts, the BEST in their field, ANY field, they all have one thing in common. They ALL go to their graves still learning.

[Ray Settanta]

LOL!  I found volume 1 on TOW for $59, but no volume 2.  Amazon has both for $270.......

I just bought RCA l and RCA ll for $120 from here:

https://www.shumwaypublisher.com/shop/category.aspx?catid=2

[bob in the woods]

I have them both, however I use RCA 1 the most. It has more of the earlier guns which are my main interest.

[jerrywh]

 If you depended on Portland Oregon gun shows for examples everything would look like a AR15 and a pile of peperoni.

[thecapgunkid]

Brooks..."Books"...Yup

Also, Ask for Shumway around Christmas or your birthday.  You , personally, won't spend a dime and these babies are priceless.

Also, Also.  if you can find one close enough, think about a class.   I wish I had one.

Don't shoot yore eye out, kid

The Capgun Kid

[Ray Settanta]

"....give some ideas to newcomers on ways to get experience shaping without breaking the bank. One alternative is to get cheap or free wood from sawmills , scraps from building sites etc. I realize that this may be pine or other types of wood, but, were talking about practice shaping."

Good ideas. What I do to get cheap wood is to check the discount lumber pile at the big box stores. (Home Depot, Lowes or similar). Wood is sold at about 75% off. Laminate a few pieces of wood together and you have a stock blank on the cheap. Sure softwood works differently than maple but it will serve nicely. And you also can get practice hiding glue lines if you want.

[elkhorne]

It's too bad there are no events like Dixon's where we can see actual demonstrations in shaping in the south or south central us because so many actual learning events are so far away from us down here. Gunshows to see originals are worthless in our part of the country unless you want to shape a rifle like an AR15 or current production gun as I have already heard someone say about another area of the country. I've been to several classes but we never actually get to the task of  rough to final shaping other than talking about it and saying you need to come back next year. I know of several guys that have gone for 2 or even 3 $1000 classes plus travel and stay to still come home with a rifle not ready to finish out. One individual has been going to classes for so many years he says he has a closet full of unfinished rifles. The best thing i have found in a long time is Peter Alexander's new DVD set. he is very thorough in it and goes through each major construction step in a different chapter. I have not finished them as of yet but I am looking forward to trying a build following his technique, step by step. Some of us have to see to do and are more visual than able to do from the written word. Just another perspective from someone 1100 miles away from attending Dixons. I and am sure there are others that wish someone with good video skills could film many of the demonstrations there and sell them at a reasonable price. Something like that would  share the knowledge taught there with a much greater audience. Hope all who can attend will have a Great Time learning.
elkhorne 

[Ron Scott]

My perspective is that of an instructor at the NMLRA seminars. My classes focus on stocking European Flintlocks and I get to mentor an average of eight students per session. A really useable tutorial would be long document. In lieu of a tutorial, I will lend a few observations gleaned from nine years of mentoring. Establish center lines on your stock and renew them as needed. Don't remove wood faster than you can measure dimensions. Band saws seem like a good time saver but I have seen wood needed for a cheek piece end up on the floor. If you can work where an original is available for a model, that will provide you with a excellent guide to understand the small details not discernible in a photo. Every region has its particular form, so not every hint available on the internet is a fail safe rule.

[elkhorne]

Ron,
You make one of the most important points and it seems many beginning builders mess up because of it and that is CENTERLINES! I have even been to a class that they did not even mention centerlines and that was a dis-service to the students attending. Even with precarved, you have to draw and maintain centerlines to keep things symmetrical and to be able to measure from for other uses and checks. Also, something Jack Brooks taught me was to write in pencil, dimensions you are looking for right in the area where you can quickly reference them. One thing I have found useful is a vernier caliper that measures fractions of an inch as well as decimal equivalents. Thanks for the inputs.
elkhorne

[jima]

Just wanted to mention that to me shaping has been something of a challenge , after reading Nathans post I picked up the phone to ask him a few questions.  Instead of talking  I ended up a Nathans shop for about 3 days . Nathan put aside one of his projects and explained  the importance of grain run out.  He went over my current project, Identified some  issues , worked on the proper shaping practice for that area. Sent me home with a wealth of knowledge.   Thanks Nathan !

[Dave Patterson]

The gun shows they have out west have very few long rifles to see let alone nice orginials. Only a few specific shows may you actually see a long rifle worth examining. At least that has been my experience here in Washington state

We have the same issue down here in NoNV.  Plus, given our work schedules, The Bride and I really don't have much time available for travel... but non-muzzleloading coworkers and friends who DO have time for weekend getaways have tipped us off to a ton of small-town museums, with various sized displays of rifles.

Seeing and handling originals isn't a vain hope for us Westerners:  just a little more challenging is all.

[KentSmith]

The first gun I made I sawed the blank out of a 3" X 8" cherry slab with a borrowed cross cut hand saw and had a hand drill (egg beater no power drill), a surfoam file, a 1/4" and 1/2" wood chisel, set of files and a screw driver.  I made myself a gouge.  Wasn't the prettiest rifle I've made but it fired and I killed a deer with it.  Its aesthetics issues were not related to lack of tools.

[Joe Stein]

The gun shows they have out west have very few long rifles to see let alone nice orginials. Only a few specific shows may you actually see a long rifle worth examining. At least that has been my experience here in Washington state

We have the same issue down here in NoNV.  Plus, given our work schedules, The Bride and I really don't have much time available for travel... but non-muzzleloading coworkers and friends who DO have time for weekend getaways have tipped us off to a ton of small-town museums, with various sized displays of rifles.

Seeing and handling originals isn't a vain hope for us Westerners:  just a little more challenging is all.

Maybe some of the western residents on the forum who know of museums that have any longrifles on display could post the information on the forum.