Author Topic: Boxed set, Original? or very old copy?  (Read 7248 times)

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
  • Tennessee
Boxed set, Original? or very old copy?
« on: July 26, 2017, 03:35:12 AM »
I don't know much, but I'm thinking these aren't American, and therefore probably not legitimate fodder for this forum, BUT--where can I find better information as to time/place/maker than here?

It's a boxed "dueling" set, complete with Numbers 1 and 2 on them.  I have some work to do replacing the cock on #2.  Casting has been made, welding up the insufficient casting is tomorrow.  Then I get to fit it to the hexagonal shaft from the tumbler.

Only three pics because I don't want to offend the forum too much and expect this to get booted to OTBF.  I'm really unclear as to where to post not-American guns of "our" general time-frame. Thanks for any guidance there as well.

wait...I'm not getting the "add image to post" option.  I'll work around.  Dangit...done





« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 04:22:56 AM by WadePatton »
Hold to the Wind

Offline Hungry Horse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5565
Re: Dueling set, Original? or very old copy?
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2017, 04:07:27 AM »
The proof mark is Belgian, but I don't know if it's Late nineteenth century or twentieth century. Often the pistols with lots of carving, and inlays, really weren't duelers, they were presentation pieces.

  Hungry Horse

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
  • Tennessee
Re: Dueling set, Original? or very old copy?
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2017, 04:16:37 AM »
Okay that's a start on my boxed set knowledge.  Thank you.

Was told that the gold writing on the bbl translates to "cast steel". Does that time-frame them better?
Hold to the Wind

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
  • Tennessee
Re: Boxed set, Original? or very old copy?
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2017, 05:59:25 AM »
This set looks greatly similar but a little different.

Now I have to go figger out what/where of the "2nd Empire" as given in the description.  Oh--French. Okay. Anybody redirect me any better let me know.  Thanks.

http://www.artquid.com/artwork/60055/box-set-of-dueling-pistols-percussion-2nd-empire-era.html

Yup. French 19th fer pretty sure.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 06:16:44 AM by WadePatton »
Hold to the Wind

n stephenson

  • Guest
Re: Boxed set, Original? or very old copy?
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2017, 06:11:12 AM »
 Wade, They might be Belgiun  made copies of French designed pistols ?  A friend has a pistol with the same proofs as yours  and, he told me it was copied after French design. His is a single and no box either . Just a possibility ? Nate

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: Boxed set, Original? or very old copy?
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2017, 06:39:59 AM »
Seems to me that cast steel was a 1860/70s invention. Remington made a bunch of cast steel barrels. As I understand it, cast steel is a process, and doesn't mean the barrel was a casting...
John
John Robbins

Gulf state gaurd

  • Guest
Re: Boxed set, Original? or very old copy?
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2017, 06:48:18 AM »
It was common for duellers to have lightened triggers and barrel heavy (duellers following the Code duello typically kept pistol barrels up till it was their turn to fire, the challenger had the option to fire first being the injured party but out of sporting nature might opt for simultaneous as did Aaron Burr and Hamilton.  They were to level their pistol and discharge clean without lingering or taking excessive time to aim.  No torturing your opponent.  When holding a pistol like that we have a tendency to naturally aim high, the heavier barrel was to help overcome that so you naturally came onto your target.  The opposite of the quick draw tending to aim low unless you adjust your body to compensate.  Like any specialized firearm there were certain ideas about best design for the practice of duelling.  Any better pictures of the case and accessories?

You might want to looke up the Code duello.  It waz drawn up at the Clonmel summer assizes "1777?"  Duelling and the many stories that go with it adds to the cool factor of having a nice cased set (or brace) of pistols.  Abe Lincoln, Jim Bowie, Andrew Jackson, and dozens of other famous people participated and had some pretty wild stories as a result.  I have wanted a set for a while just have had too many other projects and priorities.

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
  • Tennessee
Re: Boxed set, Original? or very old copy?
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2017, 07:04:03 AM »
Okay yes, I do recall hearing something about "cast steel" being not made of castings, but slipped on the details.

I'll root around for a better pic. I didn't get all I thought, but can get more. 

What I've seen in pics so far indicates that this is a lesser ornamented version of a French styling that is not uncommon.
Hold to the Wind

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7018
Re: Boxed set, Original? or very old copy?
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2017, 01:42:04 PM »
Hi Wade,
Nice pistols.  Second Empire refers to the period of Napolean III's rule of France (1852-1870).  I suspect your pistols were made during that period as well.  The Belgian barrels are not unusual even for pistols made in other countries but yours could easily be Belgian made copying the a French style particularly the LePage family. Pistols were often made in pairs, which means they may not be specifically intended for dueling, especially by mid 19th century.  The gold letters do mean "Cast Steel", which  means the steel was cast in crucibles to homogenize the alloy and produce a higher quality and consistent steel.  The steel ingot was then beaten into skelps to be used for gun barrels, knives, swords, razors etc.  Cast steel was produced in southern Asia for more than 1000 years before your pistols were made but the European process to make it was invented by Hutchinson in Sheffield, England during the mid 18th century.  It is important to realize that steel was precious until the Bessemer process was invented in 1856.  Henry Bessemer's process created the first inexpensive steel.  By the early 19th century, the best and most expensive barrels were made either stub twist iron, steel infused iron (Damascus), and cast steel (homogenous steel).

dave   
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Boxed set, Original? or very old copy?
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2017, 02:54:05 PM »
Belgian. That doesn't mean they are bad, the Belgians actually made some pretty high end stuff when they had to, more pics would be helpful. I translate the top flat to read "Maple Cheese". :o But it is possible my Belgian is a bit rusty..... ;)
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
  • Tennessee
Re: Boxed set, Original? or very old copy?
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2017, 04:39:53 PM »
Thanks for the info. Here are some more pics

I had to change "themes" to get "add image to post" option to show up, so this is direct!!! whoot!













Hold to the Wind

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
  • Tennessee
Re: Boxed set, Original? or very old copy?
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2017, 04:48:32 PM »
The flask is is "un original" as is the mould. Neither of them fit the box properly. Greased patches left in the box where a tool is missing. I like the ball starter. Packin' stick is broken, appears to be ebony? Another tool or two missing.  I didn't try to get a complete set shot.

I've found many similar sets on the web, but they're all slightly to somewhat different. 

There was a cleaning patch jammed tight about half way down the bbl of the #2 (missing cock).

We have casting made from cock #1, and it's getting a bit more work done before I hack a hexagonal hole in it.

Hold to the Wind

Online Hudnut

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 231
Re: Boxed set, Original? or very old copy?
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2017, 04:59:58 PM »
I think that in 1893 a crown was added to the Belgian proof mark.  Along with the cast steel mark, this would mid to late 19th century. 

Offline Seth Isaacson

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1105
  • Send me your rifles for the ALR Library!
    • Black Powder Historian
Re: Boxed set, Original? or very old copy?
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2017, 05:11:51 PM »
As others have said, they are 1850s-1870s century Belgian proofed target pistols. Acier fondu is cast/"crucible" steel. They are typical of the French and Belgian pistols from the period. Do the rear sights adjust via a small screw behind them on the upper tang? Hudnut is correct about the crown being added in 1893.
I am the Lead Historian/Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Boxed set, Original? or very old copy?
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2017, 07:55:56 PM »
As others have said, they are 1850s-1870s century Belgian proofed target pistols. Acier fondu is cast/"crucible" steel. They are typical of the French and Belgian pistols from the period. Do the rear sights adjust via a small screw behind them on the upper tang? Hudnut is correct about the crown being added in 1893.
Uh-hu, here in Iowa we say "Maple Cheese" for the Belgian translation. Of course you live across the river where your state government has a lot more rules about translations and stuff....... ;)
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
  • Tennessee
Re: Boxed set, Original? or very old copy?
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2017, 09:19:22 PM »
As others have said, they are 1850s-1870s century Belgian proofed target pistols. Acier fondu is cast/"crucible" steel. They are typical of the French and Belgian pistols from the period. Do the rear sights adjust via a small screw behind them on the upper tang? Hudnut is correct about the crown being added in 1893.

The sights are ridiculously small to be actually used. I'll have to check when I handle them again.  The trigger adjusting screw is apparent.

Oh, that's what that screw is about. The front sight is about 2/3 the size of my pinky nail-blade on a pin (no pic just now). Maybe it all works out-of-doors but us old guys couldn't see those sights inside the building yesterday.


upload gifs online
Hold to the Wind

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9694
Re: Dueling set, Original? or very old copy?
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2017, 09:35:41 PM »
Okay that's a start on my boxed set knowledge.  Thank you.

Was told that the gold writing on the bbl translates to "cast steel". Does that time-frame them better?

That s the right translation. Sort of like the German Guss Stahl.
Not a type of cheese as has been suggested. ;D

Bob Roller

Gulf state gaurd

  • Guest
Re: Boxed set, Original? or very old copy?
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2017, 11:43:11 PM »
In duellling the point is to settle the matter of honor.  Taking excess time aiming is considered unsportsmanlike.  Might explain the sight design.

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
  • Tennessee
Re: Boxed set, Original? or very old copy?
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2017, 12:40:06 AM »
In duellling the point is to settle the matter of honor.  Taking excess time aiming is considered unsportsmanlike.  Might explain the sight design.

So if both parties shoot wide, it's spit, cuss, then smile and go home with honors intact? 
Hold to the Wind

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7018
Re: Boxed set, Original? or very old copy?
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2017, 02:36:58 AM »
Hi,
No that idea is absolutely wrong.  If they were meant for dueling, the rear sight would be a wide notch or "U" for quick aiming.  Those pistols were made for target work.

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline JCKelly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1434
Re: Boxed set, Original? or very old copy?
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2017, 02:50:15 AM »
Guys who understand this foreign stuff are rife on www.vikingsword.com
Gotta join to post, no problem but they will take 1 - 2 weeks before they accept you. If you post photos of your gun & ask questions, then you may not sell that gun on this site
Learnt interestin' stuff about my Irish blunderbuss here

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
  • Tennessee
Re: Boxed set, Original? or very old copy?
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2017, 07:06:16 AM »
Guys who understand this foreign stuff are rife on www.vikingsword.com
Gotta join to post, no problem but they will take 1 - 2 weeks before they accept you. If you post photos of your gun & ask questions, then you may not sell that gun on this site
Learnt interestin' stuff about my Irish blunderbuss here

Thanks Jim. These aren't mine, but just have this (new to me) opportunity to handle and learn from them.

Am yet dunce but larnin' fastta alla times.  :P
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 06:30:52 PM by WadePatton »
Hold to the Wind

Offline Seth Isaacson

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1105
  • Send me your rifles for the ALR Library!
    • Black Powder Historian
Re: Boxed set, Original? or very old copy?
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2017, 04:49:53 PM »
Hi,
No that idea is absolutely wrong.  If they were meant for dueling, the rear sight would be a wide notch or "U" for quick aiming.  Those pistols were made for target work.
dave

No, plenty of dueling pistols have very fine sights, some have sights like you are talking about, and some have no rear sights (pretty rare later on). The bigger issue for dueling is that adjustable sights were generally not allowed. However, if you read more into the history of dueling, pretty much any weapons were allowed if agreed upon. A duel was even fought over Paris from hot balloons using blunderbusses, and duels with rifles are also well-documented.
I am the Lead Historian/Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*

Gulf state gaurd

  • Guest
Re: Boxed set, Original? or very old copy?
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2017, 11:14:12 PM »
Abe Lincoln's duel was suppossed to be with broad swords on a elevated plank or log.  He chose the weapons since he was challenged by the injured party.  His reasoning was he did not want to hurt the guy but figured he could harmlessly knock his challenger from the plank with the flat of the sword.  Before the match started Abe took his sword and with his height and reach effortlessly removed a branch high off the ground "that might interfere with the duel" it really was to demonstrate his advantage and his challenger and challengers second agreed to withdraw the challenge witnesssing that Lincoln could cut him up before he was close enough to engage.

Offline Seth Isaacson

  • Library_mod
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1105
  • Send me your rifles for the ALR Library!
    • Black Powder Historian
Re: Boxed set, Original? or very old copy?
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2017, 11:49:07 PM »
That is one of the better dueling tales that don't involve any actual violence. There is a good story about the poet Alexander Pushkin showing up to a pistol duel eating a bag of cherries. He refused to fire and supposedly spit a few of the cherry pits at his opponent while he waited for him to miss, and then he went about his day eating more cherries as he left the field.
I am the Lead Historian/Firearms Specialist at Rock Island Auction Co., but I am here out of my own personal interests in muzzle loading and history.
*All opinions expressed are mine alone and are NOT meant to represent those of any other entity unless otherwise expressly stated.*