Author Topic: hawken finish  (Read 3813 times)

Offline RichG

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hawken finish
« on: July 28, 2017, 08:05:19 PM »
looking at pictures of original Hawken rifles, the finish looks like a colored varnish applied on the wood. or is the varnish just oxidized? The heavy wear areas(wrist, cheek, bottom of fore end) look like bare wood. What would be a modern equivalent? Did they use ferric nitrate or equivalent under a varnish?
how polished should the furniture be if I color case hardened it?

Offline Scota4570

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Re: hawken finish
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2017, 08:44:02 PM »
http://whitemuzzleloading.com/docs-ramblings/

About 3/4 down the page.

Don Stith will have information too. 

I'm working on one too. My Plan is, AF stain, then dye stains, then dilute varnish with finger print powder, then possibly Mohawk toned lacquer to simulate the dark varnish, then the top coat of varnish.  Plans change, I'll have to see how it progresses.  Every piece of wood responds a little differently.   I imagine varnish with artists oil paint in it may give a simmilar look as the originals. 

If I love the curl after the AF stain I may leave it alone. 

 
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 08:49:56 PM by Scota4570 »

Offline RAT

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Re: hawken finish
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2017, 04:48:12 AM »
I believe the Hawken brothers used a brown-tinted varnish. "Brown varnish" (exact words) show up in period descriptions for the specified finish on Northwest trade guns. When looking at late (1840's-1860's) Hawken rifles it's pretty obvious the tint is in the varnish and not a stain in the wood. Just look at the areas where the varnish has worn through. The "Bridger" Hawken at the Montana Historical Society is one such example.
Bob

Offline rich pierce

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Re: hawken finish
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2017, 05:27:08 AM »
It's sometimes hard to decipher what techniques were used originally. Not many stains go deep.  It's entirely possible to wear through the finish and the stain on a heavily used rifle, giving an appearance of unstauned wood.  It IS unstained.  It's just that it wasn't stained because the stain didn't penetrate that far. 

Easy to test this with a spare slab of maple.  Stain it with your favorite stain.  Whether you varnish it or not is irrelevant. Now measure it's thickness. Take off 0.010 by sanding with 150 grit.  Then 0.010 more.  It's rare for a stain to go deeper than 1/32". Areas missing 1/32" is not an unusual amount of wear on a frontier rifle. 
Andover, Vermont

Offline okawbow

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Re: hawken finish
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2017, 06:17:40 AM »
In pictures I see of original Hawken rifles; the colors look exactly like violins made in the same time period. A "ground" was used on the bare wood. Often shellac was the ground, sometimes mixed with minerals or resins. The ground produced a yellowish color on the maple. Then coats of colored varnish or clear varnish and thick colored "lake" are applied until the desired color is achieved.

Over the years, the varnish wears and cracks and chips away in hard use areas and exposes the ground and bare wood. The violins were not stained. To me, the Hawken rifles look like they were not originally stained either.



« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 06:30:54 AM by okawbow »
As in life; it’s the journey, not the destination. How you get there matters most.

Offline L. Akers

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Re: hawken finish
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2017, 05:59:51 PM »
how polished should the furniture be if I color case hardened it?

The brighter the polish, the brighter the colors will be.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: hawken finish
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2017, 09:48:36 PM »
Okawbow,

The thing about how old violins were finished is largely nonsense.  Back in the early 1980's a professor from a Texas college claimed to have found the secret to Stradavri violins.  He looked at the wood and the finish on one using a scanning electron microscope.  His first info release claimed that the wood was stained with a mixture of animal blood and chicken droppings.  Now he had no experience in old ways of making stains or finishes.  That description of the coloring matter would be consistent with the nitrate of iron stain.
Later he published a lengthy piece in a chemical industry magazine where he went into his version of what the finish had consisted of.  With no chemical background and no background on varnish preparation of that time nor finishing techniques.  His finding of "semi-precious" stones was simply finding garnet particles in the finish.  Now Italy was long the world's largest producer of garnet.  Large crystals were indeed used for semi-precious stones in jewelry.  The very small non-precious garnet was commonly used as an abrasive.  Thirty years ago I could still buy garnet sandpaper at the local corner hardware store.
He described a "lattice structure" in the finish.  Now crystalline materials will form what would look like a lattice structure under high magnification.  But what he was really looking at was how a thin coat of a boiled oil based natural resin finish film behaves.  The film of liquid oil will begin to dry by oxygen from the air above the film.  The boiled oil begins to form minute beads commonly called micells.  These are squashed together so are not perfectly round.  As they dry, by oxygen, the spent dryer metal, at that time lead, becomes insoluble in the oil and is pushed to the surface of each minute bead of oil.  The natural resin used in the varnish was soluble in the oil before it started to dry.  but as the oil beads dry the resin becomes insoluble and it to is pushed to the surface of the beads where it form minute solid particles that fill in between the minute beads of drying oil.  This filling in process greatly reduces the permeability of the oil film thus cutting way back on how much moisture the finish will transfer in and out of the wood through the finish.

What  am relating here is not theory.  I spent hours over powerful microscopes watching oil and varinsh films dry on wood and glass test panels.  The lab I ran did industrial coatings based on various PVC resins.

Regarding shellac.  Shellac, as a natural "resin" was not known in Europe until very late in the 1600s.  In India they did not use it as a solvent based finish.  It was used only on articles made in a lathe where they pressed sticks of cooled lac onto the rotating wood pieces.  It was melted onto the wood by the friction involved.  You don't see lac being used as an alcohol based finish until you get into the early 1700s.  It then began to see use as a sealer coat under oil based varnishes.  A shellac  finish will not stand up to liquid water on it's surface.  Swells and turns white and looses adhesion.  But under a good boiled oil varnish it forms the ideal sealer.  Boiled oil varnishes will transmit a good deal of moisture through their films.  But the shellac filler in the wood will swell with any moisture and that slows or stops any additional transfer of moisture into or out of the wood.  This shellac film regulation of moisture changes within the wood helps to limit stresses in the wood that would cause it to split.

Bill K.

Offline okawbow

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Re: hawken finish
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2017, 11:06:15 PM »
Bill,
I was referring to finish done at the same time as the Hawkens were made. It was common practice at that time to use a shellack ground under oil or spirit varnish. The result after wear looked similar to Un refinished Hawken rifles after 150 years of wear.

Chuck
As in life; it’s the journey, not the destination. How you get there matters most.

Offline RichG

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Re: hawken finish
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2017, 03:32:26 AM »
the doc white article brings up a good point. selling a gun with a traditional lacquer finish instead of oil might be harder to do. my piece of wood has some good curl ,I might just stick with oil and ferric nitrate.
how much trouble is color case hardening? 300-400grit fine enough for the finish?
 
 

Offline Scota4570

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Re: hawken finish
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2017, 06:24:12 PM »
The Hawken I am currently working on has nice curl too.  I am struggling with how much of it to cover up.  So far I have, AF, then dye stains, then dark toining lacquer.  I was not liking that so I cut it back to the wood and put gumed linseed with carbon black.  The carbon black was from an acetelene flame onto the oil.  I always seem to end up playing around quite a bit to get what  I want.  I have no set formula.   

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: hawken finish
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2017, 08:20:32 PM »
The Hawken I am currently working on has nice curl too.  I am struggling with how much of it to cover up.  So far I have, AF, then dye stains, then dark toining lacquer.  I was not liking that so I cut it back to the wood and put gumed linseed with carbon black.  The carbon black was from an acetelene flame onto the oil.  I always seem to end up playing around quite a bit to get what  I want.  I have no set formula.

Old George Killen,a reprobate and gunsmith I knew for years would make a new
butt stock (don't ask me why"for single barreled early 1900's shotguns and he used
motor oil and they weren't bad at all.Smelled bad but so did George,now gone since
January of 1977.

Bob Roller