Swamped or Straight?

[Smokey Plainsman]

Going to be ordering a .36 caliber Tennessee rifle from Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading (TVM) soon. I want it to have a 38" long barrel, but am unsure if I should get a 13/16" straight barrel or ask for one swamped.

If you were me, which would you get? I plan to use this for mostly recreational (not competition) target shooting, plinking, and occasional small game hunting.

Let me know which is the better choice. Thanks!

[Bill Raby]

Get a swamped barrel. It balances a lot better.

[James Wilson Everett]

If the rifle would represent the 1815 and later, a straight barrel would be more historically correct as very many, most, barrels of that period were purchased from the Remington family and were straight.  Also, these barrels tended to be a bit heavier than 13/16.  However, a swamped barrel certainly will balance better - in addition a swamped barrel will result in a more artistically pleasing architecture to the rifle, in my opinion.  This is especially true in the wrist area where a 13/16 straight barrel can yield a rather too thin wrist.  I hope your rifle will be a real beauty.

Jim

[moleeyes36]

I've got a .36 caliber TVM SMR rifle with a straight octagon 42" barrel that is 13/16 ATF.  I bought it about 12 or 15 years ago and put 4,000 or more shots through it, though I haven't shot it in years.  It's nose heavy but holds steady for off-hand target shooting. 

Mole Eyes

[Mike Brooks]

Hammer forged barrels were made way late in the Appalachia's. The swamp is usually pretty slight, not the exaggerated  swamp we tend to use today. Also the taper and flair start and finish in places we wouldn't expect today. I have measured some mountain guns that the muzzle end was actually larger than the breech.
 38" is way too short for a TN rifle. You'll want something at least 42"-44". You need a long tang tooo, at least 3" to 4". So, If it were me I'd go with a slightly swamped barrel at least 42" long. Don't use a siler lock either unless it's the percussion "Mountain" model. Two locks are ideal for flint. Chambers Late Ketland and Davis Ketland.
 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Why is a 38" barrel too short? Do you mean historically? I'd rather the rifle fit me. At 5' 7" tall, I would think a 42" long barrel would be awkward to load for me. A shorter barrel would allow me to have the muzzle at or below eye level. Wouldn't that be better?

Sorry I'm new to all of this! My only other rifle is a Lyman GPR which I love and I would like to have a quality, more authentic "real" .36 caplock rifle.

I am not sure if the TVM "Tennessee" rifle is even appropriate for a percussion lock (from a historically correct standpoint). I do know that I want a plain, iron mounted, straightforward gun that I can take to the field out in the desert of Nevada where I will be moving soon to do target shooting, plinking, and when I get back to a place with more small game (squirrels etc.) hunt them.

Thanks for the help! You guys are great!

[PPatch]

Loading a longer barrel is no problem, you slightly tilt the gun, pour your powder in, seat the ball and patch just inside the muzzle then tilt the rifle more to ram them home. The barrels on Tennessee full stock guns a typically pretty long, I own a .36 SMR with a swamped 44" barrel, and a Kibler SMR that has a 46" barrel and I have no problem loading at 5'8" tall.

Barrel length, straight, tapered or swamped are aesthetic decisions you make while planned your project. A straight barrel is quite nose heavy, a tapered slightly less in the overall weight and nose heavy aspect, a swamped barrel is balanced much better than either, and is the lightest of either of the others - all of them will shoot well. If you are going with a 36" straight percussion gun then give some thought to a half-stock style, if a full stock is what you really want - go for it.

dave

[P.W.Berkuta]

I have a straight tapered barrel 42" (7/8" to 3/4") .36 caliber on my "squirrel" rifle and it handles great. It was a special made barrel by Jerry Cunningham of Orion Rifle Barrel Co. way back when.

[Ric27]

Why is a 38" barrel too short? Do you mean historically? I'd rather the rifle fit me. At 5' 7" tall, I would think a 42" long barrel would be awkward to load for me. A shorter barrel would allow me to have the muzzle at or below eye level. Wouldn't that be better?

It may seem like a barrel in the 42-46" range would be ungainly but at you height (which is the same as mine) you are not going to have a problem loading, cleaning or shooting. Now that said, if you want a longrifle you are going to need a long barrel. 38'' won't get it. My suggestion, go for a Swamped, 42-44" A weight barrel. Remember Swamped, A Weight.... You will be happy!

[Smokey Plainsman]

Very cool. I did not know this gang, again, I'm new to the hobby!

Perhaps a 42" swamped would be the best bet? I am not sure what "A" and "B" mean, or if TVM offers those, but on the order form they do have "swamped" on there. I might email them to ask about this. I need to be totally sure of what to get before I order because they have a $30 change order fee.

I was in the process of having a rifle built for me by someone who I won't name, but let's just say that person let me down. I have decided to go with TVM because I hear great things, there is a lot of (good) feedback on them, they aren't too expensive, and they look very nice.

You guys are a blessing and THANK YOU for helping a young guy new to the hobby!! I have been very inspired to own and shoot traditional caplock rifles ever since reading Ned Roberts "The Muzzleloading Cap Lock Rifle" book, which is amazing. I've caught the bug!!

[smylee grouch]

You caught the bug but don't worry, there's support groups for people like that and your already signed up. Once you start shooting flintlocks your not curable. It's a happy condition though. Good luck with your build what ever you decide on. 

[Dennis Glazener]

Going to be ordering a .36 caliber Tennessee rifle from Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading (TVM) soon. I want it to have a 38" long barrel, but am unsure if I should get a 13/16" straight barrel or ask for one swamped.

If you were me, which would you get? I plan to use this for mostly recreational (not competition) target shooting, plinking, and occasional small game hunting.

Let me know which is the better choice. Thanks!

Every body has their preferences and often for different reasons. I use the 42" Rice Southern Classic barrels in almost all of my Gillespie mountain rifles. Mainly because it matches pretty closely with an original Mathew Gillespie rifle I have handled. Mike is correct that most originals do not have anywhere near the amount of swamp we see in barrels today. That's another reason I use the Southern Classic not as much pronounced swamp at the B profile barrels I used to use. As to the 38 inch barrel's I love them absolutely my favorite handling rifle has been the Mathew Gillespie style NC mountain rifle with a 38" B profile 45 or 50 caliber barrel. I wish Rice would make the Southern Classic in 38" but they don't. As far as that length being period correct, I certainly have seen a lot of original mountain rifles with barrels that short even shorter. Most of them had been cut off and re-breeched from longer length's but they certainly being used back in the day.

As far as straight versus swamped, I have an original Philip Gillespie with a back action lock that was made late 1840's/early 1850's and it has a swamped barrel. I have another original VA rifle made about the same time period that has a straight barrel. Most of the Gillespie's that had dates on the barrels were in the early to mid 1840's and I think everyone that I looked at closely had slightly swamped barrels.

OH almost forgot, please listen to Mike and don't use a Germanic style lock almost all southern mountain rifles would have had an English style lock. And  almost all would have had set triggers (even though I prefer a single trigger) and don't look right without them.
Dennis

 

[Mike Brooks]

Why is a 38" barrel too short? Do you mean historically? I'd rather the rifle fit me. At 5' 7" tall, I would think a 42" long barrel would be awkward to load for me. A shorter barrel would allow me to have the muzzle at or below eye level. Wouldn't that be better?

Sorry I'm new to all of this! My only other rifle is a Lyman GPR which I love and I would like to have a quality, more authentic "real" .36 caplock rifle.

I am not sure if the TVM "Tennessee" rifle is even appropriate for a percussion lock (from a historically correct standpoint). I do know that I want a plain, iron mounted, straightforward gun that I can take to the field out in the desert of Nevada where I will be moving soon to do target shooting, plinking, and when I get back to a place with more small game (squirrels etc.) hunt them.

Thanks for the help! You guys are great!

The average height for a Frenchman in the 18th century was 5'4". most all French fowling guns used  in this country had barrels 53 1/4" long, you won't have any problems. I'm 5'11" and have loaded and shot guns with barrels 60" with no problems...and no you don't stand on a stump..... Set the butt on the ground, grab the muzzle and walk away from the butt till the muzzle is at the appropriate height for loading, then get at it.
"A" & "B" are barrel weights. the "A" is lighter in weight than the "B".
 Spend a bunch of time researching what these Mountain rifles look like. Many "Companies" don't have a clue what they are actually building and will blow a bunch of smoke about what it is you want built. There are some excellent builders on this forum that have very short wait times and are very reasonably priced and will build you a very authentic mountain gun. You might put a "wanted" add on the for sale section and see if you can hitch up with a good builder. i'm sure many people here can recommend a good builder as well.

[moleeyes36]

Dennis is right on with his advice, a Rice Southern Classic http://www.ricebarrels.com/chart.html would be an excellent choice for your rifle.  I have one in .40 caliber I'm using in a build of a Mathew Gillespie rifle now.  Check with TVM about using a Rice Southern Classic in your gun if you supply it to them.  They used a Douglas barrel I supplied to them when they build a rifle for me about 12 or 15 years ago.  They will probably do it.

Mole Eyes

[Mike Brooks]

As a matter of shocking coincidence..... Dennis Glazener makes a great Gillespie Mountain rifle kit, authentic as they come. and not "generic" Get in contact with him. Heck, I even like him.

[Smokey Plainsman]

Why is a 38" barrel too short? Do you mean historically? I'd rather the rifle fit me. At 5' 7" tall, I would think a 42" long barrel would be awkward to load for me. A shorter barrel would allow me to have the muzzle at or below eye level. Wouldn't that be better?

Sorry I'm new to all of this! My only other rifle is a Lyman GPR which I love and I would like to have a quality, more authentic "real" .36 caplock rifle.

I am not sure if the TVM "Tennessee" rifle is even appropriate for a percussion lock (from a historically correct standpoint). I do know that I want a plain, iron mounted, straightforward gun that I can take to the field out in the desert of Nevada where I will be moving soon to do target shooting, plinking, and when I get back to a place with more small game (squirrels etc.) hunt them.

Thanks for the help! You guys are great!

The average height for a Frenchman in the 18th century was 5'4". most all French fowling guns used  in this country had barrels 53 1/4" long, you won't have any problems. I'm 5'11" and have loaded and shot guns with barrels 60" with no problems...and no you don't stand on a stump..... Set the butt on the ground, grab the muzzle and walk away from the butt till the muzzle is at the appropriate height for loading, then get at it.
"A" & "B" are barrel weights. the "A" is lighter in weight than the "B".
 Spend a bunch of time researching what these Mountain rifles look like. Many "Companies" don't have a clue what they are actually building and will blow a bunch of smoke about what it is you want built. There are some excellent builders on this forum that have very short wait times and are very reasonably priced and will build you a very authentic mountain gun. You might put a "wanted" add on the for sale section and see if you can hitch up with a good builder. i'm sure many people here can recommend a good builder as well.

Last time I did that I got burned, and this was from a person that several people referred me to on this very forum. I won't (can't) name the maker due to forum rules, but he is well known, and also well know for having problems and shady business practices if you dig into his work. I am wanting to go with TVM because they have so many great reviews and feedback online, with tons of pictures of their rifles. These one off builders, sure I might be able to trust them, I thought the same about the one I chose to originally make me a rifle. I just do not want to get set up with a builder that will do me wrong yet again.

Also, I don't do kits. I know kits are a huge part of the hobby and a source of pride for many, but I am not inclined when it comes to woodworking and simply do not have the patience for it. I'll let a seasoned expert do it and help him keep the lights on.

[Mauser06]

Jist an option...there were a few Kibler kit rifles (finished) for sale on here recently....and they pop up from time to time on here.  Some guys enjoy building and finishing them and they turn out a great rifle.  I don't know if the ones listed ever sold or not....worth a look though.



I can tell you I've personally dealt deals with several on this form and in the muzzleloading community...I've never had an issue...guns..parts.. commissioned work...trades etc. So I would say your bad experience is the exception to the norm.


Spend a little time to figure out exactly what you want...then figure out how to get it. 

[Mike Brooks]

Why is a 38" barrel too short? Do you mean historically? I'd rather the rifle fit me. At 5' 7" tall, I would think a 42" long barrel would be awkward to load for me. A shorter barrel would allow me to have the muzzle at or below eye level. Wouldn't that be better?

Sorry I'm new to all of this! My only other rifle is a Lyman GPR which I love and I would like to have a quality, more authentic "real" .36 caplock rifle.

I am not sure if the TVM "Tennessee" rifle is even appropriate for a percussion lock (from a historically correct standpoint). I do know that I want a plain, iron mounted, straightforward gun that I can take to the field out in the desert of Nevada where I will be moving soon to do target shooting, plinking, and when I get back to a place with more small game (squirrels etc.) hunt them.

Thanks for the help! You guys are great!

The average height for a Frenchman in the 18th century was 5'4". most all French fowling guns used  in this country had barrels 53 1/4" long, you won't have any problems. I'm 5'11" and have loaded and shot guns with barrels 60" with no problems...and no you don't stand on a stump..... Set the butt on the ground, grab the muzzle and walk away from the butt till the muzzle is at the appropriate height for loading, then get at it.
"A" & "B" are barrel weights. the "A" is lighter in weight than the "B".
 Spend a bunch of time researching what these Mountain rifles look like. Many "Companies" don't have a clue what they are actually building and will blow a bunch of smoke about what it is you want built. There are some excellent builders on this forum that have very short wait times and are very reasonably priced and will build you a very authentic mountain gun. You might put a "wanted" add on the for sale section and see if you can hitch up with a good builder. i'm sure many people here can recommend a good builder as well.

Last time I did that I got burned, and this was from a person that several people referred me to on this very forum. I won't (can't) name the maker due to forum rules, but he is well known, and also well know for having problems and shady business practices if you dig into his work. I am wanting to go with TVM because they have so many great reviews and feedback online, with tons of pictures of their rifles. These one off builders, sure I might be able to trust them, I thought the same about the one I chose to originally make me a rifle. I just do not want to get set up with a builder that will do me wrong yet again.

Also, I don't do kits. I know kits are a huge part of the hobby and a source of pride for many, but I am not inclined when it comes to woodworking and simply do not have the patience for it. I'll let a seasoned expert do it and help him keep the lights on.

I have some idea of who you might have went with. Let me say you can't just find the guy giving you the best price and go with him because you're going to get burned every time. When it comes to getting a gun built you usually get EXACTLY what you pay for. You will with your current choice as well. If that's what you want then you should be exceptionally happy.
 There is a guy here named Joe....? can't remember his last name, anyway he makes mountain guns with hand forged mounts way cheaper than he should. Nate Stephenson would build you a great gun but he's probably got a big list. There are just oddles of choices.

[hanshi]

As Dennis Glazener mentioned, the 38" barrel is also my favorite length.  I've owned longer ones, however, and wouldn't turn one down because it was 42" plus.  My actual favorite rifle on my wall is a TVM LL .45; it has a straight 13/16" X 36" barrel and shoots/carries like a dream.

I've ordered two TVM rifles over the years and specified a "B" weight swamped Rice rb barrel and Chambers lock for the first one.  The resulting rifle, a .50, is light with a 12.5" lop and fits me like a glove.  The second is a .32 SMR with a Rice transitional ("A" weight, I believe) rb .38" barrel and a Chambers late Ketland lock; lop is 13" which works for me, at 5'4".

You can specify most anything for your rifle and Matt will oblige.  I hope one day to get a Jim Kibler SMR kit.  Like the TVM kit, Kibler's kits are about as easy to build as they come, maybe even easier than the TVM offering.  Kibler's kits/ finished SMR are also period correct.

[axelp]

I can usually spot a TVM gun at 50 paces. They all look pretty much alike. Which is not necessarily bad... They usually shoot fine. They almost universally are on the thick side in regards to the stock because they leave a bit more wood on than many of the custom builders out there do. Historically, depending on the style and time frame of course, the wood on originals are pretty slim, but there are exceptions to every rule right?  I have owned two TVM guns both straight barreled. and have handled a half dozen more over the years.

Currently I own two different flintlock guns with swamped barrels that were made from Jim Chambers Kits. I did not build them but I did design the patchbox on one of them. Love them both. They shoot great.

Good luck

K

[hanshi]

True that often TVM leaves more wood on the stock than others.  On the other hand, I have a TVM rifle that's so skinny it looks much longer than it actually is.  I also have two Late Lancasters that differ only in caliber and stock finish.  They are so dissimilar in stock architecture that they appear to have been made by different builders.   

[Daryl]

My .36 has a 38" bl., straight 13/16" and if swamped, would be too bloody light for offhand shooting.  It's still a lot lighter than I prefer & a 5/16" steel rod helps that, some.

[Smokey Plainsman]

Thanks guys. I post a WTB add for a .36 percussion rifle in the proper section. At this point, I just want to get shooting.

[Arcturus]

Smokey,
Don't be afraid of barrel length... I'm 5'7" also and have several flintlocks in the 42-44" barrel range that I consider perfect length for loading at my height... Another is being built now with a 43" barrel.  The problems you imagine of the barrel being above your eye level while loading won't happen until you get over 46-47", IMO.  For me a 42 to 44" barrel puts the loading "right in my workstation".  I've come to find I don't like barrels shorter, for practical, not just historical reasons.  As it turns out, I think they look better too!