Swiss 1.5F or 2F?

[John Allen]

I searched the board and did not see anything regarding this If I missed it sorry. So, I used to shoot alot of blackpowder cartridge and am finding myself moving mainly to smokepoles. 

For the larger calibers 54 and up should I be considering Swiss 1.5F or stick with 2f?

How about for 50 caliber

My guns are all flinters. 

Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks Guys

                                          John

[Mike Brooks]

Pour it in your smoke-pole and find out. I have used 1.5 in muzzleloaders before and it works fine.

[Black Hand]

I use FFFg in all my guns (largest is a 62 caliber)....

[smylee grouch]

I wonder if swiss isn't screened finer. By that I mean that the 1&1/2 granules are closer to 2f in other powders. Maybe the Mad Monk can clear that up. I use 1&1/2 swiss for my 52 target rifle and my 58 and 62 hunting rifles and even prime the pan with it in a pinch.

[John Allen]

Thanks fellas I am almost out of powder and have to reorder and want some opinion.  Keep them coming

[T*O*F]

Stick with 2F...you'll be happier.  I used Swiss 1.5 in my 24 ga smoothbore and had problems with inconsistent ignition.

[Mike Brooks]

I wonder if swiss isn't screened finer. By that I mean that the 1&1/2 granules are closer to 2f in other powders. Maybe the Mad Monk can clear that up. I use 1&1/2 swiss for my 52 target rifle and my 58 and 62 hunting rifles and even prime the pan with it in a pinch.

My swiss 1.5 is pretty course, but lights fast in the barrel and is pretty clean. I tried it for prime and found it slow. I been using Goex 3fff for prime. I generally use GOEX or Dupont 2ff for my larger calibered guns.....not even sure why. Used to use all 3ff back when I could shoot good....maybe that's why I don't shoot good no more.

[snapper]

both will work.  I have switched from 1.5 to 2 swiss a few years ago.

If I was ordering, it would be 2

fleener

[John Allen]

Thanks Fellas

[Marcruger]

I have both 2f Goex and 1.5 Swiss on hand. 

Back to back in the same rifles, same day, with same ball and charge size, I have actually found the Swiss 1.5 kicks a little sharper/faster, and barks or "cracks" a little more than the Goex 2f.  They both shoot to a very similar point of aim though.  I have not chronographed them, but from the feel I'd guess the 1.5 Swiss is a little faster than Goex 2f (oddly). 

Interested to hear if any others have tested back-to-back?

Best wishes, and God Bless,   Marc

[smylee grouch]

It has been explained to me that swiss is a compressed powder so the same volume of swiss compared to say GOEX will be a bit heaver, up to 10-15 %.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Here's a little comparison between Swiss 1 1/2 Fg and GOEX 2Fg.

In my BPCR (50 Alaskan) a WEIGHED 90 gr. charge of Swiss yielded 1327 FPS.  The same WEIGHED charge of GOEX 2Fg yielded only 1180 FPS.  Also, a like WEIGHED charge of GOEX takes up more volume in the case.  A conclusion is that Swiss is more efficient, and an observation:  Swiss leaves far less fouling in the bore.

I know this post violates our "longrifle" ethics, but is is a simple fact reqarding these two powders, by comparison.  Delete this if it offends.

[Daryl]

In my .69, I use GOEX 2F.  The same charge volumes (up to 100gr. 2F measure) of 3F and 2F run higher speeds with 2F. The charge weights are usually only up to 3gr. apart, with the heavier charge being 3F.
The volume of Swiss 1 1/2F weighing 85gr., is only 78gr. of GOEX 3F.  This shows considerably higher specific gravity for the Swiss powder, however, the GOEX 3F load produced 40fps higher speed than the Swiss powder. This was in a .50 cal. fast twist rifle shooting short bullets.

[hanshi]

From comparing notes and studying comments, it appears Swiss is indeed a denser powder than Goex; and as a result it generally produces higher velocities than the same volume of Goex.  I think this is what Goex had in mind when they introduced their OE powder.  OE does seem to close the distance between Swiss and Goex.

[Daryl]

I agree - I am sure if I used 3F or 2F Swiss instead of the 1 1/2F, the resulting velocity would have been the same, perhaps for 2F, but higher with 3F Swiss compared to the 3F GOEX.

[Mad Monk]

From comparing notes and studying comments, it appears Swiss is indeed a denser powder than Goex; and as a result it generally produces higher velocities than the same volume of Goex.  I think this is what Goex had in mind when they introduced their OE powder.  OE does seem to close the distance between Swiss and Goex.

The Swiss is a denser powder.  Loading density with Swiss is up around 1.08 g/cc.  Goex ran around 0.95 to about 1.00 g/cc loading density.  the Swiss powder is polished better giving more dense grains and smoother grain surfaces with no sharp grain corners.  It will "nest" better when you pour it into a measure.  The Swiss also has a faster chemical rate of burn.  This being the rate that the grains burn from the surface until they are entirely consumed.  Per unit of weight, grains or grams, the Swiss powder produces a lesser volume of gas compared to GOEX but it burns at a much higher temperature which gives greater expansion of those gases.

OE is simply an extension of the older GOEX Express powder.  Using the same ingredients they ran the mixture of charcoal and sulfur for a longer time in the ball mill.  This helped speed up the burn rate of the finished powder.  Then they ran the batches of Express in the wheel mills for a bit longer time.  This also helped increase the burn rate in the finished powder.  With black powder.  The particle size of the ingredients influence the burn rate of the powder.  That is to say it increases the chemical burn rate of the powder.  Within the limitations of the type and "quality" of the charcoal used in the powder.

[rfd]

why make it more complicated? 

one powder brand and granulation, many calibers. 

i use swiss 3f for all my flinters, from .32 to .62, for both tube and pan.

[Dphariss]

It has been explained to me that swiss is a compressed powder so the same volume of swiss compared to say GOEX will be a bit heaver, up to 10-15 %.

Swiss is more CONSISTENT in all respects than Goex. Its a lot deeper than the compression, which is about optimum in Swiss. ALL granulated BP is compressed but not all is compressed as uniformly. One must make "press cake" before it can be broken into the various granulation sizes.

Dan

[Standing Bear]

I agree, rfd, almost. Keep it simple.  Goex or Schutzen FFg for everything- pistols, flinters and shotgun. BUT 4F or 7F for the pans!

[Herb]

Today I tested some loads in my .50 caliber antelope rifle which I just finished.  It is a fullstock caplock Hawken but with a 32" Rice Jaeger barrel, so we won't call it a Hawken.  Having shot a lot of test loads in other .50's I've built, with loads of 50 to 90 grains of  10 different powders,  today I used only 100 grain charges from weight-corrected measures for each powder.  (Yes, each one has a different volume).  I shot at 50 yards from rest through my chronograph.  Used pillow ticking.  Shot four-shot groups with each powder with no fouling shots or wiping between shots or between powder changes.  I did have a wet cleaning patch on the seating jag and so wiped the bore as I seated each new charge.  First group was with Goex 3F from 25 pounds bulk I bought in  2008, which gave low velocity, 1766 fps with 89 fps spread.  I'll try this again with a different can of G-3F.  Next, 100 grains (weight-corrected measures for each powder) of Olde Eynsford 3F, 1924 fps, 225 fps spread.  I have not shot good groups with the powder in any caliber of rifle I have, and don't like it.  I am out of Goex 2F, so next, 100 grains of Swiss 2F, 2063/31 spread.  Next, 100 grains of Olde Eynsford 2F, 1959/62.  My favorite powder. Then 100 grains of Olde Eynsford 1 1/2F, another fine powder, 1920/28.  Last, 100 grains of Swiss 1 1/2F, 1906/58.  Best group was with the OE 2F.  Most fouling was felt after the OE 3F shots.  All other powders, no fouling felt as I loaded.  The Swiss 2F and 1 1/2F groups had three shots in one inch and the OE 2F had three in .8 inch.  I am still shaping and adjusting the sights, so no photos yet.

[smylee grouch]

Interesting and concise work up so far Herb. Good luck on the goats.

[hanshi]

You're always a source of great information, Herb.  Your results with different powders is quite instructive.  Thanks for posting the info.

[Herb]

I did more testing today.  Weight-corrected measures.  No fouling shots or wiping or cleaning except I have a wet cleaning patch on the seater jag and so wipe the bore as I load.  Notice the first shot is usually out of the group.  That is why a fouling shot, which I didn't use.  I am still building the rear sight.

I don't know why the low velocity with Goex 3F, but it is.  I do not like Olde Eynsford 3F.  Changed the patches, but no better.

Found enough Goex 2F for the test.  A lot faster than the Goex 3F.

Shot the Olde Eynsford with a linen patch, did better than the old pillow ticking.  The rifle liked Swiss 1 1/2F.

The lock area.



My powder measures.  Made from a 7mm Mag case cut off with a .30-06 or .270 case with the base cut off pressed into the larger case.  File to adjust for weight.  Swiss 1 1/2F is a very dense powder.


multiple image

[rfd]

swiss 1-1/2f shines for bpcr use.

[Elnathan]

From comparing notes and studying comments, it appears Swiss is indeed a denser powder than Goex; and as a result it generally produces higher velocities than the same volume of Goex.  I think this is what Goex had in mind when they introduced their OE powder.  OE does seem to close the distance between Swiss and Goex.

The Swiss is a denser powder.  Loading density with Swiss is up around 1.08 g/cc.  Goex ran around 0.95 to about 1.00 g/cc loading density.  the Swiss powder is polished better giving more dense grains and smoother grain surfaces with no sharp grain corners.  It will "nest" better when you pour it into a measure.  The Swiss also has a faster chemical rate of burn.  This being the rate that the grains burn from the surface until they are entirely consumed.  Per unit of weight, grains or grams, the Swiss powder produces a lesser volume of gas compared to GOEX but it burns at a much higher temperature which gives greater expansion of those gases.

OE is simply an extension of the older GOEX Express powder.  Using the same ingredients they ran the mixture of charcoal and sulfur for a longer time in the ball mill.  This helped speed up the burn rate of the finished powder.  Then they ran the batches of Express in the wheel mills for a bit longer time.  This also helped increase the burn rate in the finished powder.  With black powder.  The particle size of the ingredients influence the burn rate of the powder.  That is to say it increases the chemical burn rate of the powder.  Within the limitations of the type and "quality" of the charcoal used in the powder.

What effect does the difference in burn rate have on breech pressure?