Custom vs. Semi custom ?

[Booger]

Don't know if this is right place to ask this question ? If not please delete or move to appropriate place. I am always hearing the terms " custom built rifle " and "semi custom built rifle ". I was just wondering what determines the difference ? Thank you.

[Mike Brooks]

I don't know. I'll find out with you....

[hanshi]

I'm fairly certain that the difference between "custom" and "semi custom" is how the owner feels about it; that's it.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I don't know pee from paint or @#$%/!! from puddy, but I have an opinion.  Listen up Mike.
A custom gun is built from a blank, though a pre-carve may fill the bill to keep the cost lower.  There is an agreement between a builder and a client from the get-go as to what the rifle will be, and this includes allowing the builder free reign.  A GOOD custom gun is produced when the customer does not insist on this piece of hardware, or that, which almost always is wrong for the piece being made.  A nice rifle hanging for sale on the wall in Dixon's store, or on TOW's web site, though it may have been custom made, is not custom made for a new owner.  A custom gun is made by commission for an individual.  Again, you could buy a custom rifle made for someone else, but it is not a custom rifle for you.
Just my opinion and philosophy.  I stand to be corrected, or at least you could try!

[T*O*F]

custom  adjective  made to the specifications of an individual customer (often in the combinations custom-built, custom-made)

Taylor is exactly correct.  In addition, all those items made on speculation for sale, like rifles, knives, powder horns, and other items, are NOT custom made, since they don't fit the above definition.

Custom used as a noun has a completely different definition which doesn't apply to the above.

Any other opinions are just logorrhea.   

[Dave Patterson]

custom  adjective  made to the specifications of an individual customer (often in the combinations custom-built, custom-made)

Taylor is exactly correct.  In addition, all those items made on speculation for sale, like rifles, knives, powder horns, and other items, are NOT custom made, since they don't fit the above definition.

Custom used as a noun has a completely different definition which doesn't apply to the above.

Any other opinions are just logorrhea.   

Given my rifle-building skills (0.0001, on a scale of 1-100), I'm in no way qualified to reply to the question, other than to offer this:

in the world of "custom" saddlemaking, masters differentiate between "factory" (zero customer input), "bench-made" (a quality, hand-built product... but not built to any individual customer's specs), and "custom" built (hand-built specifically to one individual customer's specs). 

[Mike Brooks]

So, if I make a gun on speculation of a sale then it isn't a custom gun, it's a "semi custom"? Interesting....... You'd have no idea then if at a gunshow and saw a gun on a table if it were custom or not with out asking.....it's something that can't be seen by the naked eye.....
One of those "potato-potatoe" sort of things?

[T*O*F]

So, if I make a gun on speculation of a sale then it isn't a custom gun, it's a "semi custom"?

There is no semi custom.  It's either custom or not and then only custom to the person who commissioned it.  A better term to use would be "bespoke".  I like Dave's explanation of "bench made" items, which your spec gun would be.

[oldtravler61]

  Ok I admit I like Taylor's explanation. But my opinion is custom means. The gun was built to order Custom. Semi is you gave the builder free reign to improve on your idea so it is semi.
  Ok going back to my cave.....Oldtravler

[KentSmith]

I once had Freddie Harison make me a TN rifle. We talked at Dixons and again later over the phone about just what I wanted. He built it, I paid for it he delivered it. I considered it a custom built TN rifle by Freddie Harison. Now he also made many TN rifles for Dixie Gun Works I believe.  They were basically made for Dixie for sale by them. I would not call these custom as they all followed a basic "formula" and while I don't want to insult Freddie's memory, I'd consider it a bit like production run replicates in a way. A lot ofbuilders build a selection of standard styles with some options as to what a customers gets but the "model" and options are fairly limited and while the options are restricted to what the builder is offering I would not compare this to what Taylor is describing.

So say i start a company offering 5 styles of rifles; Issac Haines Lancaster, Bean Tn, etc.  Every time i make one of these 5 styles i use the same stock pattern, same lock choice, same buttplate and trigger guard, etc. maybe i give you choice of wood, metal, brass, iron, maybe carving or not and so forth. But all that distinguishes your gun from the next guys are your option choices. And I make a lot of the same over and over. I call that semi custom.

[n stephenson]

I believe that Taylor and KentSmith both gave good definitions for both custom and semicustom . I do think that the term semi -custom as it relates to ML rifles came about with Jack Garner , Matt Avance , and other folks who offered options on their standard pattern rifles , calibers, mounts of iron or brass, LOP options , Left handed , ETC. 

[Elnathan]

I do think that the term semi -custom as it relates to ML rifles came about with Jack Garner , Matt Avance , and other folks who offered options on their standard pattern rifles , calibers, mounts of iron or brass, LOP options , Left handed , ETC.

That is my understanding also - difference being a gun that is customized in a limited way from a standard pattern, versus a "one-off" piece.

[Molly]

So, if the definition of "custom" is "made to the specifications of an individual customerr"

And the customer specifies a component that is incorrect for the work then it is not a "good work"??

[Mike Brooks]

  Ok I admit I like Taylor's explanation. But my opinion is custom means. The gun was built to order Custom. Semi is you gave the builder free reign to improve on your idea so it is semi.
  Ok going back to my cave.....Oldtravler

Let me get my arms around this.....If a builder is forced to build an abomination of a gun from the wrong parts and poor architecture because that's the way an uneducated customer thinks a gun should look it's a "custom" gun. If that same builder builds the gun "correctly" for the same customer with out all the warts and such it is now a "semi custom"?

I think I'll take up building just semi custom guns from now on.

[nosrettap1958]

I don't have any idea but try to categorize the difference between a Green River or Sharon Rifle Barrel Company Hawken and a rifle from Art Ressel's Hawken Shop.   

http://www.thehawkenshop.com/hawken_history.htm


Both custom? One a semi custom while the other is custom?

Good luck.

[sqrldog]

I knew this was going to be confusing. So if Mike Brooks builds a rifle from a blank to my specifications, it is a custom rifle. Then having really liked my rifle he builds the same rifle using the exact same parts and techniques as a spec rifle it is semi-custom rifle. Interesting indeed. I think the term semi-custom has generally been applied to rifles made in shops producing the same generic styled rifles built by several workman in that shop often using precarves or other expedited methods of production. These shops usually produced numbers of similar rifles.This process as opposed to a custom rifle from a single gunmaker building rifles to order or even similar rifles as speculation rifles when they wanted to build something different or had no order for a rifle. I think the term is/was used as a slightly demeaning term. It really is a subjective term and can have a varying meaning from one.person to the next Just my two cents worth.

[n stephenson]

  Ok I admit I like Taylor's explanation. But my opinion is custom means. The gun was built to order Custom. Semi is you gave the builder free reign to improve on your idea so it is semi.
  Ok going back to my cave.....Oldtravler

Let me get my arms around this.....If a builder is forced to build an abomination of a gun from the wrong parts and poor architecture because that's the way an uneducated customer thinks a gun should look it's a "custom" gun. If that same builder builds the gun "correctly" for the same customer with out all the warts and such it is now a "semi custom"?

I think I'll take up building just semi custom guns from now on.

Mike, Just wait till we discuss SEMI- SEMI-CUSTOM guns , That`s when it gets INTERESTING!!!! or, what about a "redo" on a custom or, semi custom, or, a custom "redo" on a semi custom, or a semi custom make over on a semi custom rifle. My head hurts , I think I`ll relax by, building a rifle

[okawbow]

I agree with Mikes take on this. I make longbows to order. Occasionally a customer wants a bow made exactly to his idea of custom. I've made bows that were fairly ridiculous in their choice of wood, length, handle shape, etc. just like some longrifles I've seen.

A custom gun is made to order for parts used, style, and especially fit to the customer. A semi custom gun is made for an individual, but made like the builder thinks best. A production gun is made by a builder without any buyer Input at all, to be sold to anyone.

Custom doesn't mean better. Sometimes just the opposite.

[sqrldog]

Guess I need to call Mark Silver and see what he wants for that production Jaeger he displays at the CLA. It was built w/o input from anyone or a specific order from anyone. 😊

[KentSmith]

The Harrision rifle I mentioned above is a beautiful and functional weapon, if someone wants to call it a semi-custom piece, knock yourself out.  I still love to look at it, carry it, touch it and shoot it.  It's quality doesn't change no matter how you classify it.  I also have an Isaac Berlin by Allen Martin.  Both hang on the wall in the dining room so I can stare at them during dinner. Their wrists feel like a beautiful woman's wrist. I assume they are custom work but as far as I am concerned when the wife is going on and on about her cousins, I can look at either gun and be miles away with a smile on my face.  Works for me.  Call either of them what you want I ain't selling.

I wouldn't equate "custom"  with quality.  I think there is an assumption that a builder making custom guns is producing work both aesthetically and functionally superior and I don't think that can be implied.  Likewise, building a custom gun for a customer  wanting an abomination is still an abomination.

A builder making his living building poor quality custom rifles is going to starve.


There are many aspects that have to fall into place to make a custom or semi-custom work a piece of art. Some of those "aspects" won't carry the same weight for everyone and will be subjective, but in general there are standards and parameters that must be met to garner a consensus of the level of achievement. This is true in either  custom or semi-custom work.

[Joe S.]

  Ok I admit I like Taylor's explanation. But my opinion is custom means. The gun was built to order Custom. Semi is you gave the builder free reign to improve on your idea so it is semi.
  Ok going back to my cave.....Oldtravler

Let me get my arms around this.....If a builder is forced to build an abomination of a gun from the wrong parts and poor architecture because that's the way an uneducated customer thinks a gun should look it's a "custom" gun. If that same builder builds the gun "correctly" for the same customer with out all the warts and such it is now a "semi custom"?

I think I'll take up building just semi custom guns from now on.

custom built abominations are still custom.I would like to think a respectable custom builder would try to talk perspective customer into what's right and what's an abomination.If its going to go against your values and your money situations good turn the job down.Kinda thinking a truly custom piece might include,stocked from a plank,hand forged parts,locks,trigger pack built custom.Semi,might include using say track parts,Davis trigger,L&R lock,ect.perhaps a pre carve stock.Semi is a little gray area to me,if you where to let one of the better builders make a silk purse out of a sows ear so to speak,perhaps that is custom as well,tough question.

[Mike Brooks]

After two days of nearly constant serious contemplation, (hey, I got nothin' better to do.....) I think "custom" and "semi custom" are really poor words to choose for the guns we build. From now on those words will NOT be spoken on this forum. So says I.....

[heinz]

"Custom"  is an advertising word.  Taylor described its correct meaning going back to the old concept of "custom" meaning a customer's request.  Many of us are of an age where the term was associated with "customized" automobiles and inferrred specialized or modified parts.  In general today the word reeks of BS.  Custom can mean a kit slapped together using iron parts on an Issac Haines stock, yes custom but boring.  Custom is often used by folks who do not want to say something meaningful.  I just finished writing up descriptions on 32 contemporary rifle artworks, and I never once used "custom"
Advertising is meant to provoke interest, and seldom to convey information. 

Caveat emptor  and Brooks is right.
 

[smart dog]

Hi,
I think folks make this way more complicated than it is.  I  believe most folks think of a semi-custom gun as one in which the maker has a repeatable line of products or models for which he or she offers a limited set of options to tailor the gun to the customer.  The base guns are always recognizable despite the limited "user selected" changes and the maker can offer cheaper prices because by repeating a fixed line of products, he or she can create efficient and likely machine-oriented methods of production.    Semi-custom does not necessarily imply lower quality.   A custom gun is a one-off product from start to finish.  IMO using a precarve stock or making a kit (like Jim Kibler's great SMR) constitutes semi-custom not that the designation "semi-custom" or "custom" is very important.

dave

[Mike Brooks]

and Brooks is right.

Didn't see that one coming.....