Help, Goodoien barrel shooters!

[Tryon52]

I'm a first time newbie to the forum.
This sport of muzzleloading is truly a love/hate relationship!
I have a flintlock made up with a Goodoien 40"x15/16"x.40cal barrel. It refuses to group under 2" at 50yds off a bag! I've tried everything-

55gr of 3f (I've also tried 45, 50, 60, 65, 70)
.395 and .400 ball
spit lube, neatsfoot oil, bees wax/neatsfoot, balistol/water mix
strip pillow ticking ranging from .012-.015
load is snug and goes down with a two hand push, but no hammering
spue always up and centered
I've tried GOEX 3f & 2f & SWISS 1.5f
I've pulled the breech and checked for problems. Bore is as shiny as a baby's ...........

Oh its had moments of brilliance, but once in a blue moon and with no consistency. My bench shooting technique is good as I often do heavy barrel .22 benchrest.
My other ML's can shoot the pants off this thing, and their basically off hand rifles! This is suppose to be a "TARGET RIFLE"!!
I'm real close to turning this thing into a .40cal floor lamp!
What the ....?
Any suggestions?
 

[little joe]

Are the other rifles flint or percussion?  I know the 22s are not flint and do not compare a ML to  the late stuff. Check your patching and if they are intact just more  practice.

[smokinbuck]

Looking for the condition of your fired patches will tell you a lot. You may also check to be certain there's no muzzle damage. Sounds more like patches though.
Mark

[Tryon52]

Actually the fired patches look perfect, that's what bugs me the most. Just a refresher- When James Goodoien was making his barrels over 10yrs ago, they were pretty much ALL made match grade for competition shooters, I mean right down to the mirror polish of lapping the bore. This is why its so frustrating.

[smokinbuck]

I'm very familiar with Jim's barrels having been beaten by them many times in chunk matches. He did a wonderful job on them.
Mark

[bgf]

Thicker patch (.020 canvas or 10oz. denim) and 60-65gr. 3f Goex is where I'd start. 

Inspect crown.  Look for symmetrical starburst of residue on muzzle.

It's a flint, make sure touch hole is no bigger than necessary, and no bigger than 1/16" under any circumstances. 

Flintlocks don't forgive technique.  .22s do.  Caplocks are in between.

.40 caliber is sensitive to wind, especially if you're shooting groups. No wind for testing.

Make sure your target is good enough to get consistent sight picture every time.  Probably best to use a spotter and adjust sights to hit somewhere else, like chunk shooters do.  Try to shoot each group during consistent lighting conditions.

Try different places for rest along barrel and stock.  Usually about 6" behind muzzle is a place to start.

When all is said and done, there are 2" barrels, ie that won't shoot any better, but you say it occasionally do better, so I'm guessing the load and technique are not consistently optimal.

[rhbrink]

 I'm not a Goodoien barrel owner but sounds like the bore is very slick and all the patch lubes you mention are also slick maybe too slick? Have you tried Teflon or a dry patching method as by Dutch Schoultz? Be nice to know the twist too?

RB

[hortonstn]

Having owned a match benchrest rifle from Jim I'd try a 20 teflon patch 65 min grain fff and a larger ball I shot mine for years then sold it the first thing the new owner did was increase ball size
It shot amazing I wish I'd have tried it to stubborn I guess or I listened to the wrong people.
Just my opinion

[Mike_StL]

Yes, we need to know the twist and the bore size.  Something is going on and we don't have all the information.

Could the sights be loose?  Could the wedges be loose?  If the barrel is pinned to the stock, you may need to add forward and aft relief in the under lugs.  The breech area may benefit from glass bedding. Problems may not be in the bore of the barrel.

I am speculating that you have a very slow twist or a very fast twist barrel.  It is also possible that the bore is oversized and you need a larger ball.

[Tryon52]

ball size is .400. checked sights, everything tight. I believe twist is 1:56 or 1:60.
With the .400 ball and patch, its a pretty snug fit. I don't want to have to hammer the load down for fear of deforming ball.

[Hungry Horse]

The optimum twist rate for .40 cal. Is 1in 48" according to some of the old barrel makers. That being said, I am guilty of buying a barrel off of this forum that is .40 Cal. 1in 66", so I may very well be in for some of the same irritations you are experiencing. Slow twists can be hard to figure out some times. I have a .50 cal. That is 1in 72" twist that I almost rebarreled before I sorted it out. All I can tell you is if somebody try's to give you advice and is not shooting the exact combination you are ignore them. I tried all the stuff people advised and it only slowed my finding the proper combo by about a year.

  Hungry Horse

[nosrettap1958]

A barrel of that quality should not be that picky. I had a Pedersoli barrel that was extremely picky about the AMOUNT of lube it liked on the patches. It only like a slight dab of lube.

But I had a Green Mountain barrel that would shoot bulls eyes no matter what you stuffed down the bore.

This is a tough one.

[smylee grouch]

Maybe you should review your bench rest shooting technique and make sure your not using center fire or rimfire technique's. Barrel on the bags for one. Use a smaller aiming point if you can. Make sure your short starter isn't pinching the patches as you load. Keep the bore line as parallel to line of sight as you can. Make sure all loading and sighting remains consistent throughout your shot sequence.

[smallpatch]

Best shooting barrel I've every had was a Goodoien barrel.  First three shots were with a .395 ball, and .018 patch.  All three  in the same ragged hole at 25yds.
I reported this to Jim, and his response was..... yeah, that's what they're supposed to do.

[Daryl]

My .40 Goodoien barrel, 7/8" x 42" had 48" twist. The grooves were very wide with quite narrow lands.  I used a .398" ball with .0235" patch, or .225" patch, didn't seem to matter much. When I acquired a .400 Lyman DC mould, I found it cast one ball very badly WONKY, .394" x .400", while the other cavity cast .400" x .400".  The .400's shot wonderfully, however the wonky ones didn't and  made the mould a pain to cast with, so I went back to using the .398" mould.

 I always used the heavy denim 10 OUNCE (.0225") patches or the mattress ticking that went .0235". Those were as I measured them, compressed hard in my calipers.

Accuracy was good with both water based WWWF lube as well as Lehigh Valley Lube or Hoppe's #9 PLUS.  The water based lubes shot well with 55gr. 3F GOEX at 1,775fps.

The slippery lubes demanded more powder and speed.  At 75gr. GOEX 3F, or 85gr. GOEX 2F, the accuracy was the same as the water based slower moving loads, yet both produced 2,240fps (might have been 2,270fps - my memory is giving me trouble on that).

By good, I am talking about small 1/2" C to C groups for 5 shots at 50 yards benched.  I found I had to shoot at a 3" or 4" black circle, holding 6 o'clock to get those small groups. If I used a larger aiming point, my groups grew- but- that barrel was amazing, never shot over 1" with round balls and the thick patches.  BTW - it was very easy loading and I could push the patch and ball into the bore with just the nub on my short starter, not needing to hit it with my hand.  A very nicely rounded crown allowed this, yet did not hurt the accuracy.

edited to add the picture

[Hungry Horse]

Daryl's Goodoien barrel is the classic 1 in 48" twist recommended by barrel makers for .40 cal. Muzzleloaders since time immemorial. On top of that it has Forsyth style rifling that allows deeper rifling, without the patch sealing issues regular deeply rifled barrels experience. So, long story short, it is like comparing apples, and wildebeests, when compared to the barrel you have.
 You will no doubt have to increase the charge in the slower twist to stabilize the bullet. And, you likely won't be able to utilize the tighter patching, because your barrel likely has equil lands and grooves, which has a harder time creating a good seal, and tends to damage patches that are overly tight. The good news is standard style rifleing ( as long as it's not much over twelve thousandths) benifit greatly from obturation of the bullet, that the stiffer charge creates. Good luck, and keep us posted on your findings.

  Hungry Horse

[Daryl]

I'm a first time newbie to the forum.
This sport of muzzleloading is truly a love/hate relationship!
I have a flintlock made up with a Goodoien 40"x15/16"x.40cal barrel. It refuses to group under 2" at 50yds off a bag! I've tried everything-

55gr of 3f (I've also tried 45, 50, 60, 65, 70)
.395 and .400 ball
spit lube, neatsfoot oil, bees wax/neatsfoot, balistol/water mix
strip pillow ticking ranging from .012-.015
load is snug and goes down with a two hand push, but no hammering
spue always up and centered
I've tried GOEX 3f & 2f & SWISS 1.5f
I've pulled the breech and checked for problems. Bore is as shiny as a baby's ...........

Oh its had moments of brilliance, but once in a blue moon and with no consistency. My bench shooting technique is good as I often do heavy barrel .22 benchrest.
My other ML's can shoot the pants off this thing, and their basically off hand rifles! This is suppose to be a "TARGET RIFLE"!!
I'm real close to turning this thing into a .40cal floor lamp!
What the ....?
Any suggestions?

Patches are to bloody thin, imho.  I don't care what rifling the rifle has, I use .022" to.0235patches. I did this in my .32 with the lands twice as wide as the grooves, as well as in my .45 with equal width lands and grooves.  The GM .45 gave the same accuracy as my Goodoien .40 barrel, 1/2" with 5 shots at 50 yards.  BOTH had 48" twists and both demanded I(use heavier charges than MOST of the guys on this forum use.  They demanded by not giving me the accuracy I wanted, without increasing the powder to the levels I did.
The .45 GM barrel needed 75gr. 3f or 85gr. 2F. That was in a 48" twist.
Sorry- made a mistake in the my post - the .40 Goodien barrel needed 65gr. 3f and 75gr. 2f to shoot, and shoot it did, but - also wanted the heavier patches just as I normally use. The Velocities obtained are the same as produced by the .45  barrel - 2,240/70fps with 3F and 2F.  It is interesting that both barrels showed their best accuracy with slippery LeHigh Valley lubricant, at that speed!!!!!!
I will note here, than the .400"X .400" balls shot identically with the .398" balls.
The Goodioen .010" rifling depth is the same as GM's rilfing on the .45 barrel.

[nosrettap1958]

Yep, smaller caliber ball thicker patch. If you have to clean between every shot.

Have you tried some of these suggestions Tryon? 

[Hungry Horse]

O.K. Smart guys, if the rifling style, and the rate of twist, don't mean anything, why do the barrel makers build them?

 Hungry Horse

[Daryl]

The wide groove, narrow land are easier to load with a tight patch - that is true.

48" twist works very well, that is true, especially in the smaller bore sizes. Slower than 48" twists usually NEED more powder to get equal accuracy to the faster twist.

Loads still have to be tight to shoot well, that is a given as well.  Just look at the loads (both tight AND heavy) used by the round ball bench rest shooters.

Rifling twist and depth of the grooves, as well as width of the grooves is very important - no one said it wasn't.

To get the best accuracy from my wide grooves and narrow grooved rifles, I have to use tight loads.  I've found many people on this site are not capable or simply refuse to use the type of loads I

use as they say they are too difficult or impossible to load - or they are  simply happy with the accuracy they get from what I call 'weak' loads, ball and patch combos or powder charges, or both.

The fact that all of us up here, including our women use the same loads, says something, but not sure what THAT is. 

[nosrettap1958]

O.K. Smart guys, if the rifling style, and the rate of twist, don't mean anything, why do the barrel makers build them?

 Hungry Horse

Yea, but how is he going to do anything about his barrel's twist rate? What's his next move completely scrap the barrel because its to slow?

[rich pierce]

O.K. Smart guys, if the rifling style, and the rate of twist, don't mean anything, why do the barrel makers build them?

 Hungry Horse

Yea, but how is he going to do anything about his barrel's twist rate? What's his next move completely scrap the barrel because its to slow?

Heavier charge.

(Just kidding). Or twist the barrel some. Clamp it in a vise, grab the muzzle with a good wrench, and twist it 1/8 of a turn.  See how it shoots. Of course you have to move the front sight to the top flat. The rear sight will be cocked some, necessitating filing a new notch off to the side.

(Done kidding). A barrel maker this good won't make a barrel that isn't accurate.  But the original poster said he tried up to 70 grains, which would seem enough.

[StevenV]

Tyron where are you located? I shoot 40 cal. and have no problem getting tight groups. We shoot competition at Blue Mt. Muzzleloaders Shartlesville Pa . Some of the best shooters you will find anywhere. You mention wide grooves narrow lands, my initial reaction you need more lead. You could easily load .403 ball with teflon coated pillow ticking (.018 to .022). The more lead the better. Use 3f Swiss the most consitent powder out there. Just from your explanation it is in your load and not your shooting technique. One other thing after about 100 shots we "treat" the barrel to JB bore cleaner. It will defiantly tighten your groups. After so many shots your barrel becomes "smooth" and this "freshens" the barrel allowing the rifing to grab the patch much better. Did you accurately check your twist and what did you come up with? Hope this helps and if your looking for more PM me I will gladly talk with you.    StevenV

[nosrettap1958]

Oh brother. More lead, thinner patch, less lead thicker patch, heavier charge, no you need a lighter charge, the Op is probably saying, why did I bother asking.

And I'm sure he knows how to shoot a rifle, at least give him that. 

No wonder he has probably signed off for good.

[Hungry Horse]

What do the spent patches look like? With my slow twist .50 cal. (1in 72") the patches were burnt beyond recognition shooting a .490 ball, and an 18 thousandths ticking patch. The tighter I patched it the worse it got. I bumped the powder charge up to 100 grains of 3F and when I ran out of heavier patching used some thinner stuff for a couple of shots. The thinner patches were fine, and the group was much tighter.
 What I'm saying is these really slow cut rifled barrels can sometimes defy traditional theory. So don't be afraid to try some different things. The one constant is they need more powder to stabilize the ball.

  Hungry Horse