Did Full Stock Hawkens Exist

[CavSoldier3ACR]

I am interested in building a full stock Hawken in 58 or 62 caliber to use for an elk hunt next year.  I have seen some debates as to whether there ever were any full stock Hawken's built.  I mean in a style similar to the half-stock variety but in flint and a full stock.  Can anyone shed some light on the topic?

Ed

[Avlrc]

I don't know about when Samuel was making rifles in St Louis, but his family made mostly fullstocks  in Hagerstown Maryland.  I have seen a few Hawken fullstocks rifles, but not sure if Christian  made them or one of his sons, including Samuel. I know you mean when Samuel was making rifles , but if he made them in Maryland when  he was a kid, I bet he made them in St louis as well.

[sz]

JGHawkens by Steve Zihn, on Flickr
hawken-sam-001 by Steve Zihn, on Flickr
These pictures are all of originals.
There are some full stock Hawkens in the group.

[CavSoldier3ACR]

Thank you very much.

[Don Stith]

 Percussion full stocks exist with both a Kentucky style cheekpiece and a beavertail cheekpiece I have handled a J&S Hawken and an S Hawken full stock that were almost identical architecture and had the Kentucky style cheekpiece
  The Hawken on display at the School of the Ozarks is a full stock percussion  with beavertail cheekpiece
 Flintlocks are a whole different question

[okieboy]

 There is a difference in asking "were there full-stock Hawken plains rifles" and were there full-stock Hawken plains rifle that were flintlock".
 The evidence for the Hawken flintlock rifle has been reviewed pretty thoroughly in earlier threads that would be worth your effort to search out and read; and then make your own decision as to historical correctness and whether historical correctness is a deal breaker for you. There are a lot of approaches to gun design and building and in the end each builder sets his own rules for himself. Personally, I think that doing the research and deciding your approach is a lot of the fun. If it wasn't, we wouldn't need to keep spending money on books, going to shows, and going to museums. 

P.S. While I was typing Don Stith posted and if anyone knows,it is probably Don.

[Mike Brooks]

I have handled probably 6 or 8 fullstock  St. Louis made Hawken rifles over the past 37 years. none of them were flint.

[Bob Roller]

I have handled probably 6 or 8 fullstock  St. Louis made Hawken rifles over the past 37 years. none of them were flint.

I have seen only one full stock Hawken and that was years ago while visiting
Tom Dawson. He had the long bar trigger out of it and we both agreed that
it was made by taking the triggers from a smaller trigger bar and reinstalling
them in the long bar.The "pins" were apparently finishing nails.
   There is no reason that the style of the caplock full stock Hawken can't be
incorporated into a flintlock rifle. It may or may not be historically correct
but it can be called PERSONAL preference.I have seen some very good looking
full stock Hawken styled rifles and nobody cared if they were HC or not.
I have made a number of locks for these projects over the years and there
was a good number of them made in the 70's and early 1980's.

Bob Roller

[Mike Brooks]

I have handled probably 6 or 8 fullstock  St. Louis made Hawken rifles over the past 37 years. none of them were flint.

I have seen only one full stock Hawken and that was years ago while visiting
Tom Dawson. He had the long bar trigger out of it and we both agreed that
it was made by taking the triggers from a smaller trigger bar and reinstalling
them in the long bar.The "pins" were apparently finishing nails.
   There is no reason that the style of the caplock full stock Hawken can't be
incorporated into a flintlock rifle. It may or may not be historically correct
but it can be called PERSONAL preference.I have seen some very good looking
full stock Hawken styled rifles and nobody cared if they were HC or not.
I have made a number of locks for these projects over the years and there
was a good number of them made in the 70's and early 1980's.

Bob Roller

Probably 50% of the fullstock Hawken guns I saw were at a gunshow in the Chicago area (St. Charles) at the Pheasant Run building. It was always one of the greatest gunshows you could ever see. Anyway, Always a big conflaberation over cap/flint on the full stock guns. I'm sure they made a bunch of flint fullstocks.....I wonder where they all went?

[rich pierce]

For those desiring a St. Louis flintlock plains rifle, the Philip Creamer rifle made for Clark would be hard to beat and shares many characteristics with the J&S Hawken rifles. It's a little fancy but would be easy to tone down.

[okieboy]

 Mike, it is a well known fact that the Boy Scouts collected all of the flintlock Hawkens during metal drives. They got most of them during WW1 and finished the job during WW2. As a former Scout I have special super-secret knowledge, but it does not extend to why there was so much anti-flintlock sentiment, but no similar malice towards persussion Hawkens. There are some things in history where we will never know the whole true story: it is just a baffling mystery.

[smylee grouch]

Their is some food for thought in the last couple of issues of Muzzle Blasts magazine on full stock and flintlock Hawken rifles.

[Don Stith]

Mike, it is a well known fact that the Boy Scouts collected all of the flintlock Hawkens during metal drives. They got most of them during WW1 and finished the job during WW2. As a former Scout I have special super-secret knowledge, but it does not extend to why there was so much anti-flintlock sentiment, but no similar malice towards persussion Hawkens. There are some things in history where we will never know the whole true story: it is just a baffling mystery.

Not sure how serious you are but will add an observation
 About 1970 there was a picture posted in a booth at Friendship of a pile of scrap iron from a WWII era collection
  There were 4 identifiable Hawken plains rifles on the pile
 They were percussion
 Just wish I had tried to buy the photo

[Buffaload]

Don, when I was a kid i worked at a limestone mine in Carntown Kentucky.  I used to BS with the old man that ran the hoist.  He was from Maysville or Augusta and said when he was a kid he would  go to the scrap dealer to sniff around and saw barrel fulls of CW era guns there.  Funny as I would have thought those folks would have used them up.
Ed

[okieboy]

 Don, I am aware of the photo, but the post was just for fun. (But please don't tell Mike!)