Linseed oil questions

[Joe S.]

Sometimes there's just way to much information and opinions for the novice gun builder to digest.Everybody has their go to finish and I get it ,it works for them.Simple,quick,easy,one,two,three coats done,great.I see the time is money part as well too.I have also seen some real nice finishes with BLO,really made the curl pop.So if a fellow wants to put in the time,effort and does the homework to do it right,why not if thats what you want to try.I still have not made up my mind to what I'm going to go with but I'm looking at plenty of posts and how you folks finish your builds.I have plenty of scraps to put finishes on for practice,what ever looks the best I will go with.

[Ray Settanta]

BLO alone is a joke.  Never dries fully, turns to goo in wet weather, and always feels sticky.

This is interesting to me. I use BLO all the time. Admittedly, not on gunstocks and not in the wet. But I have never had this problem. On my tool handles in particular, it always dries and is never sticky.

[dogcatcher]

Finding a finish is about like dressing a beautiful woman. Some want a long dress , some want a skirt , some a pants suit. A complete book could be written on just the finishes on longrifles alone. I used BLO once , I did not have the driers , etc. After about a month I finally got the goo off of it. With all the good finishes available I don`t make my own , but there are lots of good finishes that people here do make.

I am saving this quote to pass on to my friends. 

[Jim Kibler]

I have a few questions about linseed oil finishes. I get different answers on some of these all the time. Which do you prefer, raw or boiled? Does anyone still make a leaded linseed oil?  I used some of Jim Kibler's leaded oil finish and liked it a lot, but that doesn't seem to be available anymore. What would be the most traditional oil finish? Any input is appreciated.
Thank you
John

You are correct, we don't offer the leaded oil finish anymore.  With all the concern about lead recently, we decided it wasn't the best product to market.  I still have a bit that I use and it works well.  A decent alternative is the Tried and True Varnish Oil.  It takes longer to dry but still works well.  Sunlight is very key to it hardening.

[utseabee]

I have a few questions about linseed oil finishes. I get different answers on some of these all the time. Which do you prefer, raw or boiled? Does anyone still make a leaded linseed oil?  I used some of Jim Kibler's leaded oil finish and liked it a lot, but that doesn't seem to be available anymore. What would be the most traditional oil finish? Any input is appreciated.
Thank you
John

You are correct, we don't offer the leaded oil finish anymore.  With all the concern about lead recently, we decided it wasn't the best product to market.  I still have a bit that I use and it works well.  A decent alternative is the Tried and True Varnish Oil.  It takes longer to dry but still works well.  Sunlight is very key to it hardening.

Thank you. I did get the tried and true traditional oil finish. I will pick up of the varnish oil to try on the next one.
John

[KentSmith]

Well Tried and True is fine stuff. Keep to very very thin coats and lots of sunlight

I use Chambers oil finish. Easier than "rolling my own" and dries faster.  Again after the first coat very very thin coats

Mix your own try cold pressed linseed oil plus turp plus spar varnish. Equal parts

Or cook it. Look it up somewhere here and dont burn down anything. See first two options above.

If you build enough guns you will more than likely try everything everyone has suggested. Have fun with it and don't burn anything down

[David Rase]

I have a few questions about linseed oil finishes. I get different answers on some of these all the time. Which do you prefer, raw or boiled? Does anyone still make a leaded linseed oil?  I used some of Jim Kibler's leaded oil finish and liked it a lot, but that doesn't seem to be available anymore. What would be the most traditional oil finish? Any input is appreciated.
Thank you
John

You are correct, we don't offer the leaded oil finish anymore.  With all the concern about lead recently, we decided it wasn't the best product to market.  I still have a bit that I use and it works well.  A decent alternative is the Tried and True Varnish Oil.  It takes longer to dry but still works well.  Sunlight is very key to it hardening.

I have been told that one of the reasons why lead used as a dryer works better than a Japan dryer is that a Japan dryer dries from the outside in, kind of like a scab does, so it takes a long time for the finish under the polymerized skin to dry where as when using lead as a dryer the oil dries evenly throughout the thickness.
David

[Joe S]

I have been told that one of the reasons why lead used as a dryer works better than a Japan dryer is that a Japan dryer dries from the outside in, kind of like a scab does, so it takes a long time for the finish under the polymerized skin to dry where as when using lead as a dryer the oil dries evenly throughout the thickness.

This was an observation by Bill Knight. Bill's interest was in linseed oil based varnishes, although lead drying agents are also very well known in the paint industry for oil based paints.  Bill discusses the chemistry and practical application of lead dryers both on this site and in his book.

Lead was the drying agent of choice for paints until the state of California found out that it causes cancer.

[KentSmith]

Not sure lead causes cancer or lead poisoning leads to brain and central nervous system damage etc.  Any way I use 9used) lead carbonate in my varnish. 

You want  traditional?  If you want a recipe you can find several mentioned in the ALR archives, or google them.  Here is my old one;

30grams Dark Colophony (from Kremer) - 1 oz if you wish as 1 oz. = 28 grams
30grams Baltic Amber or similar resin, copal can work - the colophony helps reduce the fusing temp. of the resin a bit
equal amount of a good cold pressed linseed oil as the cooked resin mixture, just eyeball it a little more won't hurt I tended to use 6 oz (so 3:1) but the violin pro's often say 1:1
1 tsp lead carbonate

melt the amber and colophony in a bigger than you think you need pot - 350-400 degrees.  As this is near the flash point you need a good heavy lid and an electric or similar heat source with no open flame.  It will boil and smoke.  Let it cool a bit so you can make sure all the resin is melted.  Swirl it around if there are still unmelted chunks.  Melt completely. Bring down to 200 degrees and simmer for half and hour to evaporate any oils.

Add lead and linseed oil and cook at 200 for 2 hours.  Cool and filter through a cheesecloth.  Add 1/3 volume of turpentine.

As resins and ambers can become quite expensive and to make large amounts can become expensive.  There are other choices for resins you can use.  Venetian turpentine/larch turpentine with an additional hardening resin (copal)can suffice.  Many of us have our own recipes, and are constantly looking.  Many have found something they like and stick with it and don't understand why we keep seeking the holy grail.  I made a large amount of this and bought some other from Eric Kettenburg.  Both I use for guns and other wood working projects that are special and need the best I have.  Good luck with your project.

[little joe]

 Worked in the battery industry for several years and do not ever underestimate what lead can do to your body.

[utseabee]

I'll just have to build more rifles so I can try all the finish ideas 

[Clark Badgett]

BLO alone is a joke.  Never dries fully, turns to goo in wet weather, and always feels sticky.

This is interesting to me. I use BLO all the time. Admittedly, not on gunstocks and not in the wet. But I have never had this problem. On my tool handles in particular, it always dries and is never sticky.

I never had sticky BLO treated wood either.

[WadePatton]

I'll just have to build more rifles so I can try all the finish ideas 

Now you're getting it. 

[utseabee]

I'll just have to build more rifles so I can try all the finish ideas 

Now you're getting it. 

I'll have fun doing it

[Dphariss]

I have a few questions about linseed oil finishes. I get different answers on some of these all the time. Which do you prefer, raw or boiled? Does anyone still make a leaded linseed oil?  I used some of Jim Kibler's leaded oil finish and liked it a lot, but that doesn't seem to be available anymore. What would be the most traditional oil finish? Any input is appreciated.
Thank you
John

Raw oil was the finish for US military rifles until at least early 1942. It never gets shiny and never really dries.

Only "boiled" oil has driers. However, the stroe bought stuff is paint thinner. It requires reheating with some crushed limestone or other acid neutralizer and a little more drier added. It also benefits from some resin being added. Once reheated (to max temp in an electric deep fat fryer with the acid neutralizer) it can have about 30% Grumbachers Oil Painters Medium III added to a small batch. Also a 10-20% addition of well aired real turpentine helps in penetration on seal coats and adds a little resin as well. The resin increases the oils water resistance. The other way is to mix the store bought "boiled" (its not actually heat modified in most cases) to Tru-Oil about 50-50 will make a decent finish. Straight Tru-Oil is too hard and shiny and dried to fast.
Heating the oil darkens and increases its viscosity. Done right its a better finish than most you can buy... Products with a lot of solvent content are also a health issue due to the fumes.
If you search this site you should find detailed instructions I have posted. I have also found that over time the oil benefits from a reheat since it sometimes seems to dry slower than then fresh heated. ?? No idea why suspect its why these varnishes were made in small batched by gunsmiths.

Dan

[Dphariss]

I still don't understand why we continuously look for more difficult ways to finish a gun.  There are so many, easy to use finishes on the market, yet we look for something that takes weeks to a year to build up a finish on wood. 
I use Chambers  and some times spar varnish.  Easy, beautiful, and durable with about three or four coats.
Come on guys, do we really think original makers spent a month or more putting finish on the wood?
Carry on guys.

Actually if you have a properly prepared linseed oil varnish its the easiest, fastest and most durable of almost any available.
I can do a filled finish on American walnut in 2 days with shop made oil. I can finish maple in two coats. So? If one uses a heavy bodied oil varnish, as was used a lot in the gun trade on the 18th and 19th c then one coat may work. And it will cover light scraper marks. It is beyond my comprehension that people will put 10 or 20 coats of finish on a stock or use something with a poor longevity track record and many modern plastic finishes have. I have been there and done that I will not go back. 30 odd years ago I was doing 2 custom Sharps a week and was wet sanding with a solvent heavy tung oil varnish for fill and finish. Pigs will fly before I do this madness again.
But folks tend to use what they are familiar with or what they think is easy. Modern overly thinned with solvent finishes are never the easiest in my experience. Too much solvent and too little oil.
I suspect that many rifles like the SMRs a other utilitarian guns often had one coat of simple boiled oil and were good to go. Varnish, like the "brown varnish" made by cooking rosin into the oil was widely used. Other varnishes were used as well but many of the "hard" resins required very high temerpatures, I have read, to combine with the oil. Right to the point of ruining the oil by over heating.  "Clear" finishes were seldom used since colorless LS oil was very expensive (it was used by artists to mix colors) and actually produces a less desirable effect on wood. Shellac and colored varnishes were often used in some "schools".  The relatively soft LS varnishes were used well into the "industrial" age on firearms and produce a finish that with just a little maintenance will literally look good for hundreds of years. Tung oil is a late comer here and while its OK I like a real boiled LS oil better. Almost all Tung Oil products will have high levels of toxic solvents in the mix 60-70%+ in some cases so people can use it like paint on trim or tables etc. This is why it takes so many coats and why breathing the fumes is similar to "huffing" paint.   Finishing a gunstock is more labor intensive and requires closer contact with the solvents than painting a table does.

I owe Bill Knight a great debt for his help and information.

Dan

[Daryl]

I owe Bill Knight a great debt for his help and information.

Dan

No matter which topic, we ALL do, Dan.

[Joe S.]

Kudos to you fine folks for passing along the information

[WadePatton]

Thanks for weighing in Dan.  I knew you had my favorite answer to the linseed oil question. 

That said, I'm going with a 3-part mix next to see how I like that (Spar/Turp/Oil).   But also I just recently re-located my gallon of RLO from the 90's-when I bought two dusty old gallons for 5 bucks each (all they had).

+++ UPDATE +++

Just now I found a video of a fellow making an OLD SCHOOL varnish for use on fiddles.  It looks much like the process Dan has shared with us a time or two. For those who want to understand and/or insist on doing things the "hard" way. Modify as seen fit for outdoor implement use. 

 Have a looksee:

[Dphariss]

Furniture and stringed instrument varnish is usually a poor choice for firearms. Too hard and/or uses really expensive resins that are hard to combine with the oil. Or so I have read and been told. Firearms have far different needs/uses  than a chair or a violin.
Rosin and Gum Arabic make good gunstock varnishes, not too hard and they are elastic (as opposed to flexible). I have seen old stocks finished with such and the film did not break in the dents, unless deep or created with a sharp object. 100-160 year old stocks with no checking of the finish and no breaks at the dents created by rounded objects. A lot of the finishes "moderns"  like will not last 30 years  (or maybe far less) without checking or flaking from the reports I have received...

Dan

[WadePatton]

Furniture and stringed instrument varnish is usually a poor choice for firearms...

Yes of course, but I've found no other person with a video that shows the actual process of heating and mixing oils/extras for wood finishing.

The "Modify as seen fit for outdoor implement use.  " may have been too simplistic a directive to those who are actually going to do something besides open cans and smear finishes onto wood.  But that's what I meant by it-not to parrot a fiddle-maker, but to learn from the observation of his process. Also to appreciate that there are some other rare folks out there doing it the old way. I included the video here to help us (of lesser finishing experience) advance our understanding of finishing oils, modifiers, solvents, resins, varnishes, shellacs, poly-wanna-be-i-ain't-got-times-for-dat, and et cetera.

Instrument finishes are all about being "slightly indoor durable" without deadening any resonance of the tonewoods.  Also to be pretty and repairable. So thin, light, and hard, is what I expect from them.

And that video is also the only other place I've noticed pH modification via the lime--as you speak of when making Actual Boiled Linseed Oil (NBO).  But also there is a solution of potassium hydroxide used in that process. As far as I can tell there are no checks for the balance achieved, but maybe the recipe never called for that. Maybe the margin of error is big enough that the recipe covers variations in the solutions.

I do know that KOH solution strength can be tested by buoyancy (Foxfire, IIRC).  I don't imagine pH testing kits were in the shoppes of olde.

If I could find evidence of other folks mixing up or modifying Linseed oil, I'd share that too.  We know that "Boiled" linseed oil is not, but should be, and can be with care.  I'll call it Natural-Boiled Linseed Oil (NBO).

Home cooking is best.

[rick/pa]

Years ago a retired chemist who made a commercial gun finish gave me this formula when he retired. He said it duplicated his commercial finish quite well.  The acetic acid in the vinegar acts a a catalyst to harden the BLO as I understand it.  Rub on as you would a linseed oil finish, thin coats rubbed in.  Formula is  1 1/2 oz of BLO, 1/2 oz turpentine, one teaspoon cider vinegar.

I used it on my last gun and it does dry hard but I haven't used the gun in bad weather. I make no promises other than it worked for me.  Your mileage may vary.

[rick/pa]

I checked to see if there was a rule against posting from another forum's topics. I did not see any but if this is inappropriate please remove it with my apologies.

The poster, noremf,  is a restorer of antique furniture and I think is a retired employee of Sherwin Williams. His thoughts on gun finishes are interesting, hope you find them that way also. Go to Stock Finishing, files are in PDF format.

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=520722

[JCKelly]

I think Phariss knows whereof he speaks. Would vote for following his suggestions.

Well, you really do want to mix your own, anyway, that's why you are on this site! So, just to add some confusion, I might suggest that if you intend to mess around with various linseed oil grades & perhaps turpentine that you AVOID your hardware store. "Boiled" oil is not boiled, it is raw oil to which dryers have been added. OK for painting the tool shed.                   

Not that it makes any magic stock finish, but at least you will know what you have if you get both oil and turpentine at the artist's supply store.  Me, I shop at www.dickblick.com  There is something like 700 years experience with linseed oil used for oil painting, lots of it even recorded.

A good description of both linseed oil and real turpentine is given in The Artist's Handbook of Materials and Techniques, by Ralph Mayer. I have the fifth edition.

Did get it for oil painting, not for stock finishing. For the latter I am partial to The Modern Gunsmith, James Virgil Howe, the 1941 edition. BTW his father was a metallurgist & I have his book, too.                                                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                                     
         

[Joe S]

If I could find evidence of other folks mixing up or modifying Linseed oil, I'd share that too.

There is lots of discussion about first hand expeience with making period varnish on this site.  Check the archives.