Flintlock vs. Percussion for Reliability

[Bob Roller]

Based on my experience competing at NMLRA territorial matches for almost 20 years, IMHO, the only shooters I see struggling with misbehaving rifles are the percussion shooters.

I am wondering about the quality of percussion caps now available at the
highest prices in history.There is a German that comes to Friendship for
the Fall Shoot and he uses a Gibbs/Pedersoili long range .451 to shoot
the 500 yard event.He uses the hot German RWS caps. On caplock guns,
my test is to put a dry patch in the muzzle and fire the cap and if it blows
the patch out then I know the vent is clear.His Gibbs failed this test but
went off every time he loaded and pulled the trigger. He told me that he
had misfires with American made caps but never had them with the RWS.
If you shoot caplocks as a regular thing,try the dry patch test and see if
the caps you are using have enough energy to blow it out of the muzzle.
If it won't,check the vent or channel to the main charge or buy better caps
if they're available.

Bob Roller

[nosrettap1958]

Based on my experience competing at NMLRA territorial matches for almost 20 years, IMHO, the only shooters I see struggling with misbehaving rifles are the percussion shooters.

I see that also but they're always the less experienced shooters that haven't been shooting long enough or are not interested enough to acquire the 'tackle box' full of possibles needed to run one of these rifles.

"My pick will not go in the lower hole no matter what I try."  "Because what you bought is a flash hole pick for a flintlock and not a nipple pick for a percussion."  "Oh, but the guy at Walmart said there wasn't any difference."

Or, you see them come to the range with their classic, plastic 'Starter kit' they just got at Cabela's because it came FREE with the rifle.

I could go on and on. 

What you're seeing is inexperienced shooters shooting caplocks, nothing more.

[Dave Patterson]

...What you're seeing is inexperienced shooters shooting caplocks, nothing more.

That's the conclusion I was babbling towards.

[Joe S.]

That could be said for all types of guns,user error is almost always the problem be it neglect or not putting time in to learn its ins and outs.

[bob in the woods]

In the hunt camp, under adverse conditions, is when the virtues of a flintlock become apparent. Or, at a shooting match during our humid summers. Then vent allows extremely close access to the main charge. It's easy to make sure that vent is clear, and the pan is wiped of "fouling soup " in wet or humid conditions. Given that the lock is a quality one, the sparks created almost guarantee ignition. The path to the charge in most percussion rifles is more convoluted, the exception being under hammer and the side slapper types. The quality of the cap is a variable, but my under hammer target rifle rivals my flinters for reliability. That came only after I switched to the nipples with the vent hole on the side.

[Marcruger]

I have found that in muzzleloading it pays to have "tinkerer" and "gunsmith" somewhere in your blood to get a gun shooting reliably.  Once you work out the bugs, I think both lock types can be reliable. I will allow in a pinch that I LIKE flintlocks a lot more.  I agree on that fact that the Good Lord left rocks on the ground for us, not primers.   :-D   God Bless,   Marc

[oldtravler61]

  Noticed this thread after returning from the CLA show. When shooting a flintlock your in full control. With a percussion. Your depending on that mean made cap. Is it going to work or isn't it? JM2C.  Oldtravler

[n stephenson]

...What you're seeing is inexperienced shooters shooting caplocks, nothing more.

That's the conclusion I was babbling towards.

I would have to respectfully disagree!  Most of the men shooting in the local shoots have been shooting for years, and, when someone is having a problem with a rifle , the majority of the time it is a perc. These aren't the Walmart value pack guys, these are people at a rifle competition , that aren't beginners for the most part. Some are newcomers as well but , not the majority .

[sqrldog]

Cory
By now you must realize most of the posters on ALR really like flintlock guns. Most of them have been mad since they learned that most of the world dummed up in the early eighteen hundreds and converted their flintlocks to the most unreliable system invented. And then to top it off they made these unreliable percussion guns by the thousands thereby endangering every soldier, hunter, mountain man, or settler that owned one of these unreliable contraptions. How could they be so stupid. I haven't shot or used anything but a flint gun for years but I hunted and shot a percussion gun for about thirty years, I never had a misfire that I can recall except when I forgot to put owder in the rifle. Both work fine when properly.maintained. Tim

[Bob Roller]

That info plus the fact that one horrible,bloody war was fought with caplocks and percussion
revolvers  right here says otherwise.I have heard no complaints about caplock reliability until recently.
I still think the quality of caps has fallen in America and that the German made RWS are
considered as being too "hot" by some shooters.I have been told that percussion caps are made on
the same equipment as primers for center fire guns and that there may be a lapse in quality control.
I do not know how true this is and haven't bought caps for years and still have some I bought from
E.M.Farris in 1964.

Bob Roller

[hanshi]

I own and shoot mostly flintlocks and hunt with them exclusively.  But I do have a couple of good cap guns and have probably owned more of these than flints.  While I have had few ftf, most have been with percussion; rarely traceable to the cap, though.  With flintlocks it is usually a dull flint; also an easy fix.  I trust my flintlocks as much as I trust any percussion.

[Bob Roller]

I own and shoot mostly flintlocks and hunt with them exclusively.  But I do have a couple of good cap guns and have probably owned more of these than flints.  While I have had few ftf, most have been with percussion; rarely traceable to the cap, though.  With flintlocks it is usually a dull flint; also an easy fix.  I trust my flintlocks as much as I trust any percussion.

The most satisfactory black powder rifle I ever owned was a Whitworth/Henry .451 long range rifle.
I shot it a lot over the 11 years I owned it and NEVER had a misfire or hang fire.DuPont 3fg and
Remington #12 caps.I still have 2 unopened round boxes with the green band and all that pretty lettering and white laquer.
I still think the caps now are not as hot or reliable as what I used from 1962 until 1973 when I sold the Whitworth.
Bob Roller

[Cory McArtor]

If I've correctly read the responses, there is a general feeling that flintlocks can be as reliable as percussion rifles if properly cared for and when used correctly.  That satisfies my curiosity.  As long as they are reliable enough to hunt with (which it sounds like they are) I would much rather get a flintlock than a percussion, at least for my first one.  Hopefully it won't take me too much longer.

[sqrldog]

Cory
Sounds like you made an informed decision and I'm glad you chose flint they are more fun and more of a challege to shoot. You'll feel a lot of satifaction when you do well with one whether it is simply target shooting or hunting with one. A bit of advice before you commit to purchase a flintlock,if you have shot one  before disregard this, but if you haven't try to find a good well made flint rifle and shoot it some. I have friends that have tried for thirty years to shoot a flint and they just cannot do it. When they pull the trigger on a flint gun before it goes off their head is under their left arm pit. But these same guys will shoot your eyes out with a percussion gun. Heck I might even shut my eyes  every once in a while shooting a flint rifle. Good luck welcome to the addiction. Tim

[Daryl]

If I've correctly read the responses, there is a general feeling that flintlocks can be as reliable as percussion rifles if properly cared for and when used correctly.  That satisfies my curiosity.  As long as they are reliable enough to hunt with (which it sounds like they are) I would much rather get a flintlock than a percussion, at least for my first one.  Hopefully it won't take me too much longer.

Problems with flinters usually ONLY happen after a lot of shots without ANY attention to the flint.

The first few shots ALWAYS go off perfectly - which is when the gun has been cared for deliberately.  When walking a trail, I load and shoot, load and shoot, load and shoot - 30, 40 50 times THEN I might have a flash in the pan or complete fail to throw sparks due to dull flint, or perhaps due to a piece of fouling blocking the vent. This never happens for the first - or 10th shot, for that matter.

I don't have any troubles with my cap-lock, either, unless I load without powder in either gun - THAT has happened.  It's quicker to clear that load with a flinter, though, as dribbling a bit of 4F through the vent, seating the ball all the way down and firing it off, is faster than removing the nipple, dribbling in some 3 or 2F and replacing the nipple, then capping and popping it out.

[Larry Pletcher]

I can put numbers to the question about flint and percussion ignition speeds.  Steve Chapman and I used a small siler percussion, mule ear built on a small siler sized plate, and a small siler flint.  We timed them using a pistol stock from Jim Chambers.  Time started with a sear touch and stopped with fire at the muzzle of a short barrel stub.  Twenty trials were done and an average calculated.  Working from memory, the percussion times were app. .020 seconds.  The flint was app. .070 sec. 

This is somewhat misleading without breaking the times down a bit.  The times from sear to pan ignition on many flint guns run from .0370 - .0450 sec.  (The best ever is an original Manton was timed at .0299).   But the time from pan ignition to barrel ignition must be added.  Some of the best were timed at .035 - .039 seconds.  The percussion barrel ignited in the .020 sited before.  So,   I feel confident saying that a flint barrel ignition is about .050 slower than a percussion.  Obviously these numbers vary with different locks.

Regards,
Pletch

[David R. Pennington]

Well if we go back to the original question, it really has nothing to do with lock times. He asked what was more reliable. It kind of boils down to a Ford vs Chevy type argument that could go on forever. For me, I like the idea that if I loose my flint I can most likely find a rock and make it work. And like some have already said, the flintlock is much more fun!
One of our club members told about a match they used to have where all shooters had to forfeit their flints, then find a substitute on the ground. First to fire his rifle won the match.

[Larry Pletcher]

Well if we go back to the original question, it really has nothing to do with lock times. He asked what was more reliable. It kind of boils down to a Ford vs Chevy type argument that could go on forever. . . . snipped. . . .

I have no problem with your comment.  My only reason for posting this was the comment above asking why, with modern tech don't we have a comparison of flint/percussion ignitions.  I'm a fan of flintlocks - a well-made lock that makes this kind of sparks is a joy to use:
 


Regards,
Pletch

[Mike Brooks]

Well if we go back to the original question, it really has nothing to do with lock times. He asked what was more reliable. It kind of boils down to a Ford vs Chevy type argument that could go on forever. For me, I like the idea that if I loose my flint I can most likely find a rock and make it work. And like some have already said, the flintlock is much more fun!
One of our club members told about a match they used to have where all shooters had to forfeit their flints, then find a substitute on the ground. First to fire his rifle won the match.

You'd be walking and looking for several hundred miles around here, we don't have any flint rocks laying on the ground in this part of Iowa. Well, I have found two places that some prehistoric knapper was knapping chert on a regular basis, but you still aren't going to just find anything to make a spark generally laying around on the ground around here....we mostly gots black dirt.

Now to the original poster, both cap and flint are reliable and you can confidently hunt with either, as long as the flint gun has a good lock and vent. If it's a cheap commercial flint gun it just won't be dependable and you'll hate it.
 Shooting cap guns are very similar to shooting cartridge guns lock time wise. Flint guns are a little slower, sometimes imperceptivity, and require some time to learn how to shoot well.

[Cory McArtor]

A bit of advice before you commit to purchase a flintlock,if you have shot one  before disregard this, but if you haven't try to find a good well made flint rifle and shoot it some.

I'm working on that.  Squirrel Pizza from this forum has offered to let me come down and teach me the ins and outs of shooting a flintlock.  We just have to figure out a time that works.

[hanshi]

In my shooting at the range where many shots are fired - as opposed to hunting where maybe only one or two shots are fired - about the only time I get an ftf is after numerous shots; and it always seems to come down to the flint getting dull.  Knapped or scraped, it's back in service.  I've never worried about reliability in any of my cap or flint guns as long as I do MY job.

[Marcruger]

Hanshi.  What you said.  My experience too.  God Bless,  Marc

[David Price]

Pletch,

Haven't heard from you in a while.  There is no denying that the cap lock has a faster ignition.  I have fired both on the same day at the same target.  My score is exactly the same.  I bet Steve Chapman would do the same.  He is one of the best off hand shooters around.  A well tuned flintlock rifle is a magnificent  piece of equipment which has given me a tremendous amount of pleasure for most of my life.  I'll keep mine!!!

David Price

[Daryl]

David- Taylor shoots a @!*% flinter better than most people can shoot a cap gun - infuriating at times.
Only time it is not maddening, is when I beat him - to do that, I MUST shoot a cap gun - & usually my .69.

[Larry Pletcher]

David,
It great to hear from you.  I couldn't come to CLA this year.  I hope for a chance to sit down and chat with you again.
Best regards,
Pletch