Flintlock vs. Percussion for Reliability

[WadePatton]

 
Of course the loaded-in-the-dry cap & ball gun went boom- or "splOOONK" in this case.

Now stand under the garden sprinkler wide open, with two large fans blowing erratically around, add some buck fever, and reload it and see how many shots it's good for.   





Personally speaking, I love Rocklocks for their complications and functional beauty and long history (and lack of caps). They're perfectly reliable enough for all I'm going to do with them.  When hunting I keep my pan protected by the greasing it up (sealing it) with tallow from the grease hole.  If a raindrop finds the pan or touchhole during the firing event (after the cock travel has consumed most of the lock time), then I might not get ignition and that's a gamble I'm perfectly happy with. I'm hunting/shooting for sport not survival.  Also I make it "safe" by dumping the pan and inserting a quill into the touchhole.  Easy peasy.

[hanshi]

Flintlocks are reliable enough that I never even think about it when I go into the bush after game.  Caplocks will statistically always be more reliable than flint, in the long run.  Each cap is new but the flint will eventually fail and need knapping or replacing.  Flintlocks need more attention and care to be reliable while a few minutes of experienced advice is all a novice shooter needs as to the operation of a percussion.  I have both, have hunted with both and shot matches with both.  My go-to match rifle is a 25" hand made percussion .45 with a 15/16" barrel.  Before that it was a .50  X 42" X 7/8" flintlock Va rifle.  Takes ya' choice.

[oldtravler61]

  Hanshi Why that there statement. Tis enough to get yeah tard an feathered from this group..! WHY I just never heard of such foolishness...percussion better than flintlocks....Ridiculous...I say...
You must have been plum whacked on the noggin. To even UTTER such a foolish statement.......!  Oldtravler

[Dave R]

Don't you know? If the good lord intended you to shoot caps he would have spread them out on the ground like he did flint!!!

[Mike Brooks]

Don't you know? If the good lord intended you to shoot caps he would have spread them out on the ground like he did flint!!!

I have only found two places in Iowa where the Good Lord spread flint on the ground. Actually it was two prehistoric flint knappers. One of the sites is now under a lake...... It would be about a 45 mile walk from here every time I needed a new flint. So, I'm almost as likely to find caps on the ground around here....
 I have shot flint about 99% of the time, mainly for the challenge and satisfaction of doing it. I like cap locks, got no problem with them. In fact I'm thinking to build one for my self in the next year or two. Unless I start putting scopes on my guns I'm not likely to hit much with either these days.

[bones92]

Caplocks are just as relevant to our firearms history as flintlocks...I just happen to be fascinated by the period in which flintlocks were predominant.

Matchlocks... the true OG (original gun).  😁

[Hungry Horse]

The unreliability of caplocks encouraged the development of the cartridge. Which technically only made the flash channel shorter, and the reloading faster.

  Hungry Horse

[hanshi]

  Hanshi Why that there statement. Tis enough to get yeah tard an feathered from this group..! WHY I just never heard of such foolishness...percussion better than flintlocks....Ridiculous...I say...
You must have been plum whacked on the noggin. To even UTTER such a foolish statement.......!  Oldtravler

Hmmmm...is that why a crowd of folks gathered outside my house last night?  They were carrying pitchforks and burning tapers and were shouting, "hang the infidel".

In my own defense, I rarely shoot the caplocks.  Only remember once in recent memory that I used a caplock - is that a defense??  At last count there were 7 flint eaters in my house and only 2 functioning - and nice ones, too - percussions. 

[nosrettap1958]

Even after I told those guys not to bring pitchforks. ooops. 

I had nothing to do with that mob. 

Since my video was edited out I'll describe it for you. A guy shot a percussion under water.

I see the percussion lock possibly a quarter step away from modern day cartridges maybe even closer. If you don't maybe you need to get a second cup of coffee when you get up. 

[hanshi]

Don't stress yourself, crawdad; I seem to have always had some group plotting my lynching.  A close friend did get lynched at camp - you had to know him in order to understand why - but a councillor cut him down in time.  Uh, yes, I use to run with a...."colorful" crowd.

I could make do - actually, that's exactly what I do, come to think of it - with flintlocks, period.  It's been so long since I hunted/fired anything else, I only remember that one match awhile back.  Even then I tossed the targets and fired them again with my flintlock.

[Cory McArtor]

The original poster should only ask himself, which rifle intrigues me?  Both are historical and the many Americans who put meat on the table using flintlocks had sons and grandsons who put just as much meat on the table using percussion.

Personally, I have a hard time owning just one of anything. I suggest that you get a good Flintlock and a good percussion rifle. Each will provide their own enjoyment.

I ended up trading for a flintlock a couple weeks back.  I've been busy with work and school, so I've only gone out shooting a few time (I living the city and have to drive 40 minutes or so to shoot).  I love shooting it (probably more than any of my modern guns) and so do my wife and my hunting buddy.  My observation so far is that it is perfectly reliable if I do the little things like wiping out the pan and making sure the flint is sharp.  If I do those things, it fires every time.

To say that I'm hooked would be an understatement.  I would shoot it all the time if I had a better place to shoot.  I'll take it hunting in October and December  If I had the money I'd look into building another, but that may have to wait.

[hanshi]

I'll get to hunt in WV on private land come Nov.  I plan to take my .50 flintlock as the primary arm and either my flintlock smoothbore - need to do some casting as I'm out of .62 ammo - or my .45 Lancaster flintlock as my "backup".  I'm expecting a fun weekend with no worries about reliability.

[shootrj2003]

I haven't been around in awhile but,I will put in a bit of Intel,there IS a reason that cap locks succeeded,history will bear that out...reliability is just a bit better and the fact that you get this reliability with less effort and less steps to pay attention to was the tie breaker,a snug nipple to cap fit sealed with a touch of grease you have a pretty water tight load even should you hunt in the rain like I often do,and I use a flintlock also,you can relax just a bit more,have you noticed,there are more caplock plains rifles ,including original Hawken rifles than flints?and a good supply of caps can be carried with little hassle,I do love my rock locks but I gotta give caps a bit higher for reliability and simplicity.i know flint hard  flinters will disagree anyway but it is still true.i will have try shooting my rock locks upside down.

[alacran]

I have found that reliability issues, have little to do with the ignition system being used. Reliability is equal to the amount of effort exerted in mastering any ignition system. People who have problems with caplocks do not maintain their guns properly. If you hunt in the rain or snow a cows knee is as important to a capper as a flinter.
If you only shoot once a month at your local club. It will take a long time to really get proficient with any system.
When I am back East, I shoot flint. That's what my friends shoot. Here out West I shoot both, depending on mood.  Both Flint rifles and percussion rifles have their pros and cons. If you shoot either enough you will learn to deal with those issues as they arise.

[Bob Roller]

There MUST be a reason that the militaries of the world started perverting their armies to
percussion.The percussion system ushered in long range shooting and a somewhat higher
volume of fire.I have a trio of books called The American Gun and there is an article in one
called Fuses,Flints and Pyrites and the knowledgeable and arch conservatives all agreed that
the new percussion system would make war so bloody that NObody would engage in it again.
The story ends by saying the grandson of one of these oldsters was ordering a new percussion
double from the celebrated shop of Mr.James Purdy.
Bridled flash pans were credited with keeping the flint lock guns in vogue for much longer
than would have been possible with the unbridled styles that have been revived today but
now in the waning light of 2018 the flintlock is a sportsman's piece of the first rank.

Bob Roller

[Hungry Horse]

Besides the percussion system being cheaper to produce, it was much easier to train a novice to use a percussion gun than it was to train someone to successfully use a flintlock gun. Most advancements are designed to make things cheaper, not necessarily better.


 Hungry Horse

[OldMtnMan]

I'm sure there have been studies to see which system has a faster ignition. I haven't seen them but would like to.

My own personal experience is I could never get a flintlock as fast as a caplock. I can always feel a very slight pause in a flintlock.

I believe faster is better but i'd like to know the difference between the fastest flintlock compared to the fastest caplock.

[Mike Lyons]

They wouldn抰 make these if it weren抰 true.

[OldMtnMan]

They wouldn't say "Flash in the Pan" if it weren't true.

[smylee grouch]

  " Flintlocks Forever "   

[Pukka Bundook]

Gents,

I've only read 3 pages, so am not up to speed, but has anyone here quoted Colonel Hawker on this topic?
He had some good stuff to say.

[WadePatton]

Regarding the advancement of weapons tech: Rate of fire has nothing to do with my rifle work, BTDT got bored with it.  Flintlocks remain interesting, and provide results.  It's okay to prefer caps for whatever reasons, but I've yet to see any difference in the field in my small group. 

My alias is Mojo Rocklock. 
 


afterthought:

MOF the one guy in our "camp" with the unspeakable has twice had ignition problems-missing a big buck on both occasions-he claims, was quite upset once--but he keeps on with it and all those "improvements" despite a failure to fire and a squib shot and those lost opportunities. He might not work a flinter any better and of course he only carries the BP rig when CF is prohibited.  I don't use those anymore.

[OldMtnMan]

I love both locks. I do use a caplock in the half stock Hawken style guns because I believe they never came with a flintlock.

Both are fun and both work well if you pay attention to keeping everything clean and dry.

[Larry Pletcher]

I'm sure there have been studies to see which system has a faster ignition. I haven't seen them but would like to.

My own personal experience is I could never get a flintlock as fast as a caplock. I can always feel a very slight pause in a flintlock.

I believe faster is better but i'd like to know the difference between the fastest flintlock compared to the fastest caplock.

In years past I have timed enough locks to give you a fairly good answer.  In timed tests and high speed video, a percussion will run .020 seconds.  We tried a side hammer and a mule ear with pretty much the same result.

The fastest flint lock I have ever tested was an original Joseph Manton from a fouler belonging to Lynton McKenzie.  A 12 trial average was .0299 - very close to the percussion.  But the flint gun must ignite a pan that ignites the barrel.  In testing vents and priming powder locations, the best average of 20 trials was .036 seconds - with vent liner,  priming powder close to the barrel (link below).  To compare directly one must add the lock time (.0299) to the vent ignition time (.036).  Flint barrel ignition would be between .065 and .070 ; compared to .020 on the percussion.

I doubt if you will find a lock faster than the Manton above, so likely realistic difference might be between .050 and .065 seconds.

https://www.blackpowdermag.com/pan-vent-experiments-an-introduction/
(Part 6 deals with high vs low vent ignition)
Regards,
Pletch

[OldMtnMan]

Thanks, Larry. So, it's not my imagination. Even a good flint lock will feel slow compared to a caplock.

I kept thinking if I fooled around enough I could get a flintlock as fast as a caplock because you here guys say that all the time. I'll stop trying now.

Thanks, again.