SW VA or Lexington, Virginia Rifle

[RobertRicketts]

I found this at the County Line Flea Market near Lynchburg, Virginia this year. **The seller said it was on display in a restaurant in Lexington, Virginia since the 1970's, that has closed**
The lock, trigger and guard were missing when I bought it.
I would like suggestions on what type lock, trigger and guard would be suitable to put on it.













































































































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[Mattox Forge]

Nice find. The false breach is interesting. How does the barrel seat into the stock, it looks like there is a gap behind it. Do you have photos and dimensions of the lock mortise?

Mike

[galudwig]

Heck of a nice find! Lot's of neat features to to study. Interesting to see that step wrist on a relatively plain rifle.  Looking forward to hearing what some of the more learned on the site have to say about this one! 

[oakridge]

The notched-out buttplate appears to have come off a rifle that had a patchbox.

[Tanselman]

In an attempt to start moving discussion toward identifying where this rifle might have been made, the well defined, raised flat "platform" for the guard's front extension to set into is at times associated with South Carolina rifles. The gun's slim wrist and slim architecture in general could also suggest a Carolina rifle...as one possibility. The gun appears to have used earlier parts such as barrel and butt-plate and was rebuilt as a later percussion rifle in the 1840s. Iron mounts tend to suggest it might have been made in the more western/rural parts of the state, if from the Carolinas.  Shelby Gallien

[RobertRicketts]

Nice find. The false breach is interesting. How does the barrel seat into the stock, it looks like there is a gap behind it. Do you have photos and dimensions of the lock mortise?

Mike

Mike, look at my posting above. I added pictures of the mortise
Robert

[MGillman]

In an attempt to start moving discussion toward identifying where this rifle might have been made, the well defined, raised flat "platform" for the guard's front extension to set into is at times associated with South Carolina rifles. The gun's slim wrist and slim architecture in general could also suggest a Carolina rifle...as one possibility. The gun appears to have used earlier parts such as barrel and butt-plate and was rebuilt as a later percussion rifle in the 1840s. Iron mounts tend to suggest it might have been made in the more western/rural parts of the state, if from the Carolinas.  Shelby Gallien

How common is the stepped wrist and long tail pipe on Carolina rifles?

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

  .... THIS is a rifle that I wish could talk to us ..... !!!!

[wormey]

I see that the buttplate has a cutout for a patchbox lid which suggests it was on another gun at one time.  The step wrist or step toe as Wallace calls it suggests to me southwest Virginia.  The rear ramrod pipe is worn through which suggest heavy use and was probably also off an earlier piece.  I look forward to seeing what folks come up with on this gun as it is most interesting and very much worth restoring.  Wormey

[jcmcclure]

This rifle has characteristics of another iron mounted gun that I gave handled. I would have to have a better look at it. Sure would have been grand to had that inlay on the top flat, or even the trigger guard.

[bgf]

I wouldn't rule out middle Tennessee, maybe white or Jackson county, probably 1830's??  Not sure about that buttplate with the cutout, could be a replacement.  The molding line on the forearm is also a bit odd to my eye, looks like a "customer modification".

That said, the buttstock shaping is very similar to an earlier iron mounted rifle by unkonwn maker signing G.B., classified by W. Gusler as SW Virginia or thereabouts.  I would look at the hardware on that one, though the buttplate on this one leads me to expect much later origin if it's original.  Would be nice to know if there are signs of a weld broken on the return or if the original was two piece.

Sadly the tang style could have been a clue.  If narrow and pointed, I'd lean toward SW Va, but if it flared Midway and tapered back to a point, I'd lean toward middle Tennessee and later.

PS I think the buttplate return is original almost certainly.

[ghost]

very interesting piece. I'm going to take my lumps on this, I assume that the tang traps the breech in the stock?

[bgf]

Ghost,

Good point.  I have seen a hooked patent breed retrofitted properly with a standing breech, but never something like this.

[Stoner creek]

I see that the buttplate has a cutout for a patchbox lid which suggests it was on another gun at one time.  The step wrist or step toe as Wallace calls it suggests to me southwest Virginia.  The rear ramrod pipe is worn through which suggest heavy use and was probably also off an earlier piece.  I look forward to seeing what folks come up with on this gun as it is most interesting and very much worth restoring.  Wormey

Perhaps a wood box? Did my eyes see dovetail cuts in that butt plate?

[Molly]

Personally I do not see much that says "SW VA" and certainly not the Lynchburg area.  The thing about the term "SW Virginia" is that it covers a rather expansive area and quite a diverse area and that diversity can be seen in rifles.  Pennington Gap is in SW VA and some might say Blacksburg, Roanoke or even Lexington are in SW Virginia.  Might it have been made in Roanoke, Montgomery or Rockbridge Counties??  Don't think so.  But Lee County?  Maybe.  But the influences are more TN/NC IMO.

[Mike Brooks]

Honakers are the only family I know of that were building step wristed guns in VA, I'm sure there were others. I'm no expert on this style of architecture from VA. so take that for what it's worth.

[MGillman]

Honakers are the only family I know of that were building step wristed guns in VA, I'm sure there were others. I'm no expert on this style of architecture from VA. so take that for what it's worth.

Jacob Shaffer had stepped wrist rifles in Wythe County. He was about 20 miles from the Honaker family. His son actually married a Honaker. They are the only SWVA smith's I know of with the stepped wrist.

[jcmcclure]

Honakers are the only family I know of that were building step wristed guns in VA, I'm sure there were others. I'm no expert on this style of architecture from VA. so take that for what it's worth.

While not believed to have built many rifles in Virginia, Jacob Young built step wrist rifles. As a matter of fact all of the known Young rifles, to include the iron mounted one, what shares characteristics with this rifle and hardware, were stepped wrist.

[Mark Elliott]

I didn't see anyone mention the unusual two piece butt piece.   That is the same design as a VA rifle that Wallace Gusler documented in a Muzzle Blast article; Sept. 2004 pp 36-37.   It was part of the step toe group and identified as possibly being from Rockbridge Co. VA  to E. TN.    That rifle featured in the magazine also had a very nice patchbox as did the rifle from which that butt piece in question here  originally derived.   

[bgf]

I didn't see anyone mention the unusual two piece butt piece.   That is the same design as a VA rifle that Wallace Gusler documented in a Muzzle Blast article; Sept. 2004 pp 36-37.   It was part of the step toe group and identified as possibly being from Rockbridge Co. VA  to E. TN.    That rifle featured in the magazine also had a very nice patchbox as did the rifle from which that butt piece in question here  originally derived.

I did ask if it seemed like it was originally two piece or was broken and mentioned that same rifle.  The similarity is striking, especially on the bp return with its taper as well as the shaping on the buttstock, especially the flow from cheek piece through wrist.  This one seems almost like it could be by the same shop/hand, just 20-30 years later, judging by the deeper crescent.  It looks like the buttplate is secured by a screw (or screws) and also a rivet through the toe plate?

[Mark Elliott]

I didn't see anyone mention the unusual two piece butt piece.   That is the same design as a VA rifle that Wallace Gusler documented in a Muzzle Blast article; Sept. 2004 pp 36-37.   It was part of the step toe group and identified as possibly being from Rockbridge Co. VA  to E. TN.    That rifle featured in the magazine also had a very nice patchbox as did the rifle from which that butt piece in question here  originally derived.

I did ask if it seemed like it was originally two piece or was broken and mentioned that same rifle.  The similarity is striking, especially on the bp return with its taper as well as the shaping on the buttstock, especially the flow from cheek piece through wrist.  This one seems almost like it could be by the same shop/hand, just 20-30 years later, judging by the deeper crescent.  It looks like the buttplate is secured by a screw (or screws) and also a rivet through the toe plate?

It would be nice to have a photo showing if that is a rivet or a screw at the top of the butt.    To me, it looks like those two pieces never completely matched, unless the tip of the heel broke off. 

[bgf]

It would be nice to have a photo showing if that is a rivet or a screw at the top of the butt.    To me, it looks like those two pieces never completely matched, unless the tip of the heel broke off.

I agree, there's a mystery here.  I think the two pieces would fit together on a taller stock with more shallow crescent.  But, there's never been a patchbox on this one...

Fascinating because much of the stock work and what's left of the hardware seem compatible, but there's some glaring anomalies that yet don't seem like "fakes".  Almost like the owner sent off for a replacement stock later in life and had someone other than the builders shop finish the assembly .

[RobertRicketts]

I didn't see anyone mention the unusual two piece butt piece.   That is the same design as a VA rifle that Wallace Gusler documented in a Muzzle Blast article; Sept. 2004 pp 36-37.   It was part of the step toe group and identified as possibly being from Rockbridge Co. VA  to E. TN.    That rifle featured in the magazine also had a very nice patchbox as did the rifle from which that butt piece in question here  originally derived.

I did ask if it seemed like it was originally two piece or was broken and mentioned that same rifle.  The similarity is striking, especially on the bp return with its taper as well as the shaping on the buttstock, especially the flow from cheek piece through wrist.  This one seems almost like it could be by the same shop/hand, just 20-30 years later, judging by the deeper crescent.  It looks like the buttplate is secured by a screw (or screws) and also a rivet through the toe plate?

It would be nice to have a photo showing if that is a rivet or a screw at the top of the butt.    To me, it looks like those two pieces never completely matched, unless the tip of the heel broke off.

I added several pictures. The three butt plate pieces are riveted. Both rivets have corroded, but enough remains to see them.
I also spoke to the seller. He said this was on wall display in a Lexington, Virginia restaurant since the 1970's.

[Hungry Horse]

 I think this is a late Southern restock, of a much older, and better made rifle. The hooked breech, recycled buttplate, and the inlayed barrel, all speak of a rifle much better made than the example. It's not impossible that one of the big rivets on the buttplate return, and or the toe plate, might once have housed a patchbox release button. The steptoe stock is a real puzzler to me.

  Hungry Horse

[flinchrocket]

I have to agree with Stoner Creek. The butt piece looks like it was fitted with a wood box lid on a previous rifle. Didn't Wythe county use sliding wood patchboxes quite late?