Rifleman's Knife...Tea/Vinegar Dye Sun Bleached Antler (page2)

[Black Hand]

Galudwig,
This is looking down at the edge of that Curly Maple knife before the wood scales were attached.  Beyond the flare is a flat area before it tapers into the edge.
 

Thanks for that picture.  We routinely get profile pics, but seldom do we get to see a perspective from the top or bottom.  That helps me visualize what that flare really looks like.  I bet it is very comfortable and secure against the finger.

Not many period knives with that flared bolster/choil. Some with hidden or rat-tail tangs and many more with scales on a full tang or once-piece handles with tapered tangs (half-tangs).

[Black Hand]

I'd suggest looking at period pieces. Your handle shape and overall knife design are modern...

[tippit]

Black Hand,
You right...I'm definitely new to this era in history.  I started this thread to try and come up with a period correct knife for my TN poor boy flintlock (my first black powder flintlock).  I apologize for getting off track on some of the opinions.  I'll try doing more research and won't post anymore of my style knives until I can come up with something appropriate.

[Black Hand]

You make fine knives and I've enjoyed the pictures of your work.
As with all who are starting, input from others with experience is always valuable. If I might make a suggestion - avoid vendor websites as inspirations. They tend to have pieces/designs that sell, but aren't truly historically correct. That said, there are many images on the internet of existing period pieces, however dating can be a little tricky.

There are a few general characteristics that appear to be consistent: Number and placement of pins, lack of poured bolsters, handle material and blade shape (French vs. English vs. Spanish vs. Dutch vs. Other). Boxwood was a common handle material with up to 5 IRON pins (period-dependent). Antler handles appear to be uncommon. Haven't ever seen a curly Maple handle on a period knife...

Something to remember is that blades & knives that were imported into the colonies by the barrel-full and easily available for purchase. While some knives may have been custom-forged, the purchased knives were BY FAR the most common.

Excellent craftsman that makes period knives - http://www.wickellerbe.com/

[n stephenson]

One place to see some old knives, I can`t testify to the actual periods. Is The knife in homespun America  by, Madison  Grant .  I agree , a lot of today`s knife makers make styles that are pleasing to the eye and, feel good but, are far from period correct. Very nice knives have been made all over the world for centuries but, a lot of the surviving 18th century  American pieces look very crappy almost childish in construction. I understand why a lot of todays makers don`t copy most of them . People would see them and think you didn't have a clue, most people unless very familiar with what you were trying to do would be pretty unimpressed with a true copy.  JMHO   Nate

[Black Hand]

Keep in mind with Madison Grant's book is that it purposefully shows "homespun" knives - ones that might have been made out of necessity and not necessarily by a skilled craftsman. They are crude by comparison to the usual knives available (some images here - https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Eighteenth+Century+Knife&FORM=IRIBEP - WARNING, not all shown are 18th century). Craftsmen of the period had pride in their work, and the fit and finish reflected this. Old does NOT correlate with crude.

Dead give-away to knives available from commercial vendors: Brass pins, curly maple handles, hammer marks, over-use of "Damascus" steel, non-period number and arrangement of pins, certain blade shapes, acid-etched blades....

[n stephenson]

Old does not correlate to crude,    I understand that, hence the statement "very nice knives have been made all over the world for centuries"  . Whether made out of need or not , it`s easy to see why a lot of them aren't copied.

[jrb]

there are hundreds and hundreds, maybe thousands, of contemporary made shed crown antler , poured  pewter bolster, forged hammer marked woodbury style knives. surely, our eastern frontier era settlers and longhunters must have loved them too.

[tippit]

What I'm really interested in emulating is what my early predecessor blacksmiths did in PA, Ohio, Kentucky, TN, and now that I spend winters in South Carolina.  I have seen the DVDs of Hershel House and Willy White making knives.  The way those early blacksmiths forged isn't any different from the way I'm forging blades... except I have the luxury of power to grind where they had to use files and stone wheels.

I'm not really interested in older English patterns.

[Black Hand]

there are hundreds and hundreds, maybe thousands, of contemporary made shed crown antler , poured  pewter bolster, forged hammer marked woodbury style knives. surely, our eastern frontier era settlers and longhunters must have loved them too.

Regardless of how much one may want something to be true/false in no way affects the actual facts. In other words - I can't believe this could possibly be true, therefore it must be false....
A logical fallacy - Argument from incredulity

[tippit]

To give you an example, all my blades are hand forged to almost finished.  I use good carbon steel, old files, truck/car springs both flat and coiled.  I know this Blacksmith Blade was probably produced by those smiths that made fire strikers and added a blade.  Of all the different knives I forge, this is the only one I carry in my pocket everyday.  I finish grind the blade but all the shapes are done with hammers.

It can be used as a patch knife, fire striker, and flint knapper to chip the edge of you flintlock flints.




quick image upload







With folder thin black buffalo horn scabbard....errr maybe Kydex, though extremely safe in your pocket.






Second version on bottom...more modern as it has a punched out area on handle to open beverage bottles.  Very important to be used after shooting....

[Black Hand]

All that aside, there is no evidence such a knife existed in the period and most likely is a product of the 20th Century Bushcraft movement.

[tippit]

My last post on this subject, I dyed the sun bleached antler handles with tea & vinegar solution.

Before...


After...Top blade just came out of the forge ready to be quenched.

[Black Hand]

I dyed the sun bleached antler handles with tea & vinegar solution.

You could also use strong coffee, leather dye or wood stain/stain & finish (such as Minwax). I like to finish my handles with beeswax.

[tippit]

Black Hand do you have any pictures of your knives?  Either here or PM me.

[Black Hand]

I'll see what I can find.
Not certain how many I've made over the years, but only a few fit within the muzzleloading hobby parameters. However, I've spent considerable time looking at extant examples...


Top - Friction folder with a beavertail stop and horn handle
Middle - Farrier's rasp, maple ball-grip handle stained with Aquafortis reagent, 3 steel pins, tapered half-tang
Bottom - Farrier's rasp, maple ball-grip handle stained with Aquafortis reagent, 2 steel pins, tapered half-tang

The blades were shaped using a coal forge, ground to rough shape with a bench grinder, the profile and bevels refined with files, quenched in oil and tempered in the oven.

[galudwig]

I like that knife in the middle. The remnants of the rasp teeth remind me of a snake skin!   

I'm kind of "over"  using antler for handles.  I want to try wood and some deer leg bones next.

[Black Hand]

They were the products of my first forging experience...
The large knife in the center replaced a modified Old Hickory slicer that I had reshaped and replaced the riveted handle.

[tippit]

Black Hand,
Nice!  I like the look.  Farrier's rasps look good but the problem is farrier's rasp don't have much carbon.  Kinda like doing a railroad spike but crappie steel.

galudwig,
I use to help with a traditional archery bear camp in Quebec for a dozen years (also shot a dozen bears with my longbow and one with an Osage selfbow I made and a flint point).  Use to forge my own broadheads too.  Any way we would dump the bear carcasses over a ravine.  Went back a few years later to pick up bear bones that had mineralized (very pretty) makes nice knife handles.  Oops, here I go getting off track again!

Bear Bone handled knives.... 

[Black Hand]

They were older high-carbon farrier's rasp - none of the case-hardened garbage sold today. A file wouldn't bite after the oil quench.

[tippit]

I've seen good French farrier's rasps.  Guess I've never seen good older American farrier's rasps.  We have horses and a lot of junk rasps.  If I'm going to spend a hour forging a knife, I want to know it will hold an edge.  I mainly use 5160, 52100, and 1084 with 15N20 for Damascus.

[galudwig]

Black Hand,
Nice!  I like the look.  Farrier's rasps look good but the problem is farrier's rasp don't have much carbon.  Kinda like doing a railroad spike but crappie steel.

galudwig,
I use to help with a traditional archery bear camp in Quebec for a dozen years (also shot a dozen bears with my longbow and one with an Osage selfbow I made and a flint point).  Use to forge my own broadheads too.  Any way we would dump the bear carcasses over a ravine.  Went back a few years later to pick up bear bones that had mineralized (very pretty) makes nice knife handles.  Oops, here I go getting off track again!


Bear Bone handled knives.... 

Those are pretty sweet too. Can't say that I've ever seen anyone using bear bones for knife handles.  Then again, we have very few bears here in Ohio. You probably made that sheath as well, right?

[galudwig]

They were the products of my first forging experience...
The large knife in the center replaced a modified Old Hickory slicer that I had reshaped and replaced the riveted handle.

I like the older (USA made) "Old Hickory" knives. As a biologist for ODNR, I used one of their 6" boning knives working deer check stations when aging deer.  They sharpened well and stayed sharp.  You could slip it between the teeth and cheek, turn it, lever it up, and expose the teeth in one quick motion.  I bought a few more a couple years before I retired, but they weren't as good as the older ones.  Blades were noticeably thinner as well.

[tippit]

No I didn't do the sheath.  Rebecca Parker does incredible porcupine quill work with brain tanned deer hide.  I have a few friends that do great leather work that hide my knives.

[tippit]

As I said, I have some special friends make some incredible sheaths.  This one is a copy of  beaded sheath that Chief Joseph gave to President Grant.  The combo was an auction donation for St. Jude Children's Research Hospital.  I happy to say it sold for $1200.  Now I'm officially done if not kicked off the site for so much jumping around.  Once again Thank y'all for the help...tippit