Author Topic: coning the muzzle  (Read 15515 times)

Offline Daryl

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2019, 08:51:20 PM »
ALL guns shoot better than the person shooting them, can shoot them, as your ability merely adds on to the group size the gun is capable of shooting.
As far as shooting X's, doesn't everyone? ;)
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Scota4570

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2019, 03:34:41 AM »
ALL guns shoot better than the person shooting them, can shoot them, as your ability merely adds on to the group size the gun is capable of shooting.
As far as shooting X's, doesn't everyone? ;)

I don't understand.  I can hold close to zero error off the bench with a scope.  If the rifle is shooting a 3" group it is not me.  It should stick the all in the same hole if it is as accurate as I can hold. 

Offline redheart

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2019, 03:44:47 AM »
ALL guns shoot better than the person shooting them, can shoot them, as your ability merely adds on to the group size the gun is capable of shooting.
As far as shooting X's, doesn't everyone? ;)

I don't understand.  I can hold close to zero error off the bench with a scope.  If the rifle is shooting a 3" group it is not me.  It should stick the all in the same hole if it is as accurate as I can hold.
I can hold close to zero too, but I always mess it up when I start pulling on the trigger. :)

Offline Scota4570

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2019, 05:01:07 AM »
More than any other factor trigger control will make or break your shooting skills.  Better to be a bit off with the sights or where it is on the target than to flinch or jerk the trigger. 

Offline Daryl

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #54 on: March 27, 2019, 02:25:59 AM »
ALL guns shoot better than the person shooting them, can shoot them, as your ability merely adds on to the group size the gun is capable of shooting.
As far as shooting X's, doesn't everyone? ;)

I don't understand.  I can hold close to zero error off the bench with a scope.  If the rifle is shooting a 3" group it is not me.  It should stick the all in the same hole if it is as accurate as I can hold.

Put it in a machine rest and it will eliminate ALL of your error on the bench.  Even the most accurate rifles today, do better in a machine rest than when someone is trying to steer them - no matter how accurately they think they can hold.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Turtle

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #55 on: March 27, 2019, 02:26:13 PM »
 The only time I won and argument with an anti coning person was on a woods walk of 30 shooters. While waiting to start and finding out my gun was coned, he went on and on about all the reasons it was inaccurate.  I won the shoot--his expression was priceless--sweet!

Offline Daryl

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #56 on: March 27, 2019, 10:30:55 PM »
Turtle- your statement has nothing to do with coning shooting better than non-coning.
When people enter the equation, shooting ability is introduced- someone with inferior equipment, who is a much better shot, will
oft times beat someone with better equipment. That is the rule of thumb. If that bloke had a coned muzzle, he'd have shot even poorer.
 
If coning was more accurate or even as accurate, the much more difficult and expensive to make false muzzles and guide bullet starters would never have 'taken over'
the accuracy shooting games in the 1800's - & today, for that matter.   

« Last Edit: March 27, 2019, 10:34:23 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Scota4570

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #57 on: March 28, 2019, 01:44:20 AM »
It always seems to get into apples and oranges comparisons.  Woods walks are not benchrest. 

If you know how to use a benchrest there is zero wiggle.  IF you can see what you are doing then  human error is eliminated.    At 50 yards on a calm day, I have shot several flies ( insect type),  in a row, using a 22 cal free rifle, 24X scope, and Eley Tenex ammo, off the bench. It is very cool to see the bullet fly and intersect the hapless bug.  I have also shot 100 yard groups in the "teens".  That does not mean I am special, I just learned how to use a bench. 

That is not the same accuracy expectation as shooting gongs off hand on uneven terrain with a flintlock.   IF your off hand wiggle is 6" at 50-yards and the gong is 12" you don't need a rifle capable of incredible accuracy. 

Turtle

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #58 on: March 28, 2019, 02:32:52 AM »
 In the interest of full disclosure, the course had 2 shots that had to be loaded laying down behind a log and a shot factored to favor fast loading. in Both of these I had an advantage with my coned gun.

Offline JamesT

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #59 on: March 28, 2019, 03:00:42 AM »
I am interested in seeing some real results of the effects of coning. Does anyone have some targets by chance to post of a particular rifles groups before and after? To show increased or degraded accuracy. Or no change at all. Thanks
James

Offline Daryl

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #60 on: March 28, 2019, 03:17:17 AM »
Not any more James. Not any more. Recycled 4 years ago. Seems to me Musket Blasts did an article on coning.
Just go to a muzzleloading BR, chunk or plank match and see how many muzzles are coned. If you do happen
to find some, are they winning?
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline JamesT

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #61 on: March 28, 2019, 04:55:55 AM »
Fair enough. I will look into it . Thought someone here might have some groups to share as evidence either way. I suppose I'm the only odd one who saves targets. Have kept some for different reasons here or there for the last twenty years. Ha.

Offline Daryl

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #62 on: March 28, 2019, 09:45:40 AM »
I keep some, like when I experimented with .400"x.400" pure lead balls in my .40 that had a .398" bore.
I also tried the other cavity that cast .400" x .394" balls.
I shot both bench, then offhand groups to display what an accurate load does to offhand shooting, compared to
a poor shooting load, bench and offhand. Folks had said accuracy doesn't matter because I'm shooting offhand.
My test shows otherwise. That was important to keep. Some are, most aren't.
Targets I do keep, are kept in a 3-ring binder with other test data for that particular rifle.
Here's a couple I kept - the first 5-shot group offhand from a VERY deeply grooved rifle. .028" rifling depth, all 8 of them.
This target only shows 3 actual ball impacts, actually a little smaller than a true cloverleaf.
It was only 25 yards and I was only about 26 years old & could see and hold a rifle fairly true.
Wasn't coned, but had a 1/4" deep cone shaped smooth concave muzzle crown to assist in loading
 the .457" balls I was using in this .448" bore. With this rifle and loading .457|" balls and .022" denim patches
I once lost my short starter between the starting line and the first target. I had to load those balls without
as short starter by choking up on the 3/8" rod and shoving the patched ball into the muzzle.  I once pulled
one out  loading with a long strip of cloth and the ball was rounded on both ends, literally a slug.



The second,  a picture of my wall of pride. My split cards which also have the gun used to shoot them.
Some are only 1/2 as both pieces could not be found in the snow, usually. There two I stapeled on to show
what happens if you are not in proper line with the cards - or the cards are wet. They didn't count as the card
was not cut all the way, into 2 pieces middle Ace od Hearts and 8 of diamonds.  Note a lot of the cards were
cut with the Goodoien barrel on a flintlock rifle and some were cut with a .32 Flinter, squirrel rifle.







« Last Edit: March 28, 2019, 10:06:04 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Turtle

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #63 on: March 28, 2019, 01:40:19 PM »
 The magazine article didn't use the Joe Woods tool I use, so it's apples and oranges. I have benched some my guns before and after and noticed no significant difference. A friend had a new gun that shot terrible and before rebarreling it we tried coning it. It helped a little-maybe the crown was off center. Another friends gun benched worse according to him, another said it improved accuracy-I doubt that.