Author Topic: coning the muzzle  (Read 15543 times)

Offline yip

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coning the muzzle
« on: August 22, 2017, 06:40:21 PM »
  whats the advantages of coning the muzzle, easy loading, how about accuracy?   

Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2017, 06:50:45 PM »
Easier loading for sure. Some people report no change in accuracy, others have had different results. If properly done, it should not effect accuracy but results vary.
”Far and away the best prize that life has to offer is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.” Theodore Roosevelt

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2017, 06:58:52 PM »
Big advantage for the guy shooting against you. If this really worked as well as is claimed, would the false muzzle seen on nearly every heavy bench gun ever been invented?

  Hungry Horse

Offline rich pierce

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2017, 07:17:06 PM »
I've come to think the advantages are minimal. Once short started in a traditional, non-coned muzzle the ball is conformed to the bore and rifling. On a coned muzzle one can load without a short starter but then you've got the same grunt or effort of conforming the ball to the rifling which must all be done with the ramrod.

I coned one for my wife's rifle and didn't find it that helpful. Experiences vary.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Daryl

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2017, 07:41:51 PM »
I agree - experiences seem to vary, sometimes by a lot.

The only experience I've had with a fairly long cone, is with a local fellow's rifle.  Due to the long bearing surface (drag) gentle tapered cone dragging on the cloth patch, the effort to load a tight fitting ball and patch, became almost impossible for LB.  I gave him some of the .400" sized balls I was loading, and he had great difficulty loading them in his .40 cal. rifle.

They same balls, VERY soft lead, were easy to load in my .40's short rounded crown however, even though that barrel had a tight bore, 002" smaller than the ball's diameter. I was using a .020" patch as well.

At one time, I coned the bore of my .45 long- rifle, a short cone for a depth of 3/4" long. Not until I cut off that portion of the muzzle and re-crowned it normally(for me), did my accuracy return. Some people report improved accuracy, though.  I cannot argue with that, however I can and do print my results.

To explain this phenomenon of a coned muzzle requiring more difficulty than a short crown, one only has to read the teachings of Corbin about bullet and brass drawing/sizing.  The drawing angle inside the drawing die is very short and is smoothly radiused, just like the crowns I & now Taylor put on our muzzleloading barrel crowns. The rounded crown, radiused I call it,  we put on our barrel muzzles, is less than 1/8" long or deep, yet they allow loading with tight combinations. Accuracy is likely not as good as it could be if a false muzzle was used, however false muzzles do not belong on trail walk or hunting-type rifles, in my opinion.

Hungry Horse makes a very good point.  If the coned muzzles or any other sort of crown shape increased accuracy and made loading tight combinations easy as well, false muzzles would never have been invented.

The very best muzzle shape is a square edge - SHARP, or an 11 degree angle inward (almost square) as now preferred by the stool shooters. These shapes give the 'perfect' delivery of the bullet or patched round ball.  Since we cannot have that 'perfect' shape as we need a muzzle shape that allows us to load our rifles, yet still gives good accuracy, we must test to find the 'best' shape for us.  We are the ones who need to be satisfied.

The accuracy you demand or want from your barrel is the final test/criteria.  Some crown shapes are more accurate than others - what satisfies you is right for you.

I tried LB's barrel for my self as I'd been told the cone was easier to load and he was right, the long cone was more difficult to load than my own radiused, short crown.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 07:55:14 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2017, 08:47:34 PM »
Interesting points brought up about cone and false muzzles. The false muzzle has a cone to help with the loading of tight combinations and when I look at the false muzzle of my light bench gun(Goodoien barrel) it too has a some what short cone and it loads quite easy through the false muzzle even though the ball is a 530 into a 520 bore.

Turtle

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2017, 09:03:59 PM »
 I have coned lots of guns with Joe Woods tools. A comment on my opinion of his brand of coning is that I bought a .32 tool just for my squirrel rifle which I had no cone for. The tests and experience that I have seen that are negative are not for rifles coned with his tools. I'm a believer and threw my short starters away. One of my favorite storys on this is when on a woods walk, a fellow shooter was running down my coned rifle before the shoot. After the walk-which(which I won) that  included 2 shots loaded lying down and some long shots, he shook his head and said nothing. For hunting, ever try for a quick reload and drop multiple balls on the ground that roll off an unconed muzzle?

Offline Daryl

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2017, 09:23:42 PM »
I have coned lots of guns with Joe Woods tools. A comment on my opinion of his brand of coning is that I bought a .32 tool just for my squirrel rifle which I had no cone for. The tests and experience that I have seen that are negative are not for rifles coned with his tools. I'm a believer and threw my short starters away. One of my favorite storys on this is when on a woods walk, a fellow shooter was running down my coned rifle before the shoot. After the walk-which(which I won) that  included 2 shots loaded lying down and some long shots, he shook his head and said nothing. For hunting, ever try for a quick reload and drop multiple balls on the ground that roll off an unconed muzzle?

Nope - never happened, not even once.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Online bob in the woods

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2017, 09:54:27 PM »
I have a hunting rifle in .54 cal that I  effectively "coned" without actually coning the muzzle. I simply took a small dam. chainsaw file and filed grooves in the lands, going back about 1/2 in or maybe 5/8 's in  .  These grooves allow the patch to completely form around the ball and compress easily as the ball/patch enter the barrel. It really helps loading in the woods, especially in the cold.
Accuracy has not been affected as far as I can tell.

Offline WKevinD

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2017, 10:37:09 PM »
I have an old tapered barrel from Don Getz in .45 with a cone (that he coned) that allows for an easy, deep, thumb start. It was and still is a tack driver. Problem is I gave it to my step son and it sits on the gun rack not being shot more that once since I gave it to him.
I have coned lots of others since but none were as radical or as good as the one Don did.

Kevin
PEACE is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.  Thomas Jefferson

Offline Scota4570

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2017, 11:33:40 PM »
But a false muzzle is removed before shooting, leaving a perfect flat crown. 

If you reverse the taper you have a choke.  If the barrel is lapped to create a choke then you really have something.  The choke should be cleared by the short starter.  Then the ball slides down with minimal effort.  When fired the ball/bullet slugs up and then is swaged down just before it exits eliminating any windage. The barrels I have lapped that way have all shot better than before I lapped them.   Could be the smoother more uniform bore too?? 

If it really shot better Harry Pope would have coned his bench rest barrels.  On the otherr hand, for the accuracy expectations of a long rifle I don't think it matters.  For ease of loading I'd go with the choke. 

Offline Daryl

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2017, 02:13:41 AM »
But a false muzzle is removed before shooting, leaving a perfect flat crown. 

If you reverse the taper you have a choke.  If the barrel is lapped to create a choke then you really have something.  The choke should be cleared by the short starter.  Then the ball slides down with minimal effort.  When fired the ball/bullet slugs up and then is swaged down just before it exits eliminating any windage. The barrels I have lapped that way have all shot better than before I lapped them.   Could be the smoother more uniform bore too??    agreed 100%

If it really shot better Harry Pope would have coned his bench rest barrels.  On the otherr hand, for the accuracy expectations of a long rifle I don't think it matters.  For ease of loading I'd go with the choke.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2017, 03:05:10 PM »
IF I were going the cone or funnel a muzzle I would first get it running true in a lathe and then use a taper
pin reamer OR,as I recently did,I had a 6" piece of 1" 58 caliber barrel and reamed it with a #2 Morse Taper reamer for
a collet. It be came an indexable holding tool for various projects.Depending on the bore diameter,both taper pin reamers
and Morse taper are available in sizes from #1 to #8 and maybe others.This method would assure a uniform cut and
a smooth job.

Bob Roller.

Torfinn

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2017, 04:35:53 PM »
I have coned the muzzle on two rifles both are easier to load and shoot just as well as before they were coned.

Offline Longknife

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2017, 05:36:32 PM »
I find it interesting that every time the question of coning comes up there are also statements about false muzzles. False muzzles were invented to facilitate the loading of BULLETS, not ROUND BALLS.  The result of installing a false muzzle would leave the muzzle perfectly squared and the muzzle had to be perfect to retain accuracy of the BULLET. After the invention of the false muzzle in 1840 by Alvan Clark the accuracy of (bullet) target rifles increased and the target ranges were increased from under 440 yards to 550 and up to 1100 YARDS!!!!! Who would even attempt to shoot a round ball at these ranges? There is no way one can compare the ballistics and characteristics'  of a short shooting round ball gun to the long shooting, THOUSAND YARD bullet rifles!!!..Ed 
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 05:43:18 PM by Longknife »
Ed Hamberg

Offline Daryl

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2017, 07:26:59 PM »
Ed - the round ball bench rest rifles used in black powder muzzleloading round ball bench rest matches around the States, have false muzzles.  These matches are run out to 200 yards.

The reason for using them, is to increase accuracy over a normally crowned muzzle. Note, false muzzles are not allowed for chunk shooting - another round ball match. If they were allowed, they would be used- or there would be no reason to rule against them.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 07:28:32 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2017, 12:57:41 AM »
But a false muzzle is removed before shooting, leaving a perfect flat crown. 

If you reverse the taper you have a choke.  If the barrel is lapped to create a choke then you really have something.  The choke should be cleared by the short starter.  Then the ball slides down with minimal effort.  When fired the ball/bullet slugs up and then is swaged down just before it exits eliminating any windage. The barrels I have lapped that way have all shot better than before I lapped them.   Could be the smoother more uniform bore too??    agreed 100%

If it really shot better Harry Pope would have coned his bench rest barrels.  On the otherr hand, for the accuracy expectations of a long rifle I don't think it matters.  For ease of loading I'd go with the choke.

The Alex Henry barreled Whitworth I have mentioned many times here had 8" of choke that could be
felt while loading. It had a keen "crack" to it when it went off and Bill Large once asked me if I was
shooting my Model 95 Wincheser one day. I told him it was the Whitworth and he said it sure sounded
good.
Harry Pope contended and was correct when he said the base was the steering end of the bullet and the last
half inch of the barrel determined what would happen. That was with a BULLET and I don't think a ball has a
"steering end".Going to farce,there is an Arkansas choke that's tight in the middle and loos on both ends.

Bob Roller

Offline Don Stith

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2017, 01:21:45 AM »
Ed - the round ball bench rest rifles used in black powder muzzleloading round ball bench rest matches around the States, have false muzzles.  These matches are run out to 200 yards.

The reason for using them, is to increase accuracy over a normally crowned muzzle. Note, false muzzles are not allowed for chunk shooting - another round ball match. If they were allowed, they would be used- or there would be no reason to rule against them.
Daryl
 They also accomodate  a typical .015 Dia over bore size  ball and .020 thick patch Cross stick match rifles for round ball also have the false muzzles.

Offline jerrywh

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2017, 03:06:14 AM »
 If your going to cone a muzzle it should either be done in a lathe or with a coning tool that has a pilot for the bore. Any other way is chancy at best.  A good coning job prevents the deformation of the ball by pounding it down with a short starter. I cone every barrel I put on a rifle or pistol. Shooters will testify that equal accuracy can be obtained with or without a coned barrel. I don't deny that.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2017, 03:21:35 AM »
There are a lot of people who claim that coning the muzzle doesn,t hurt the accuracy of a certain rifle, some even claim that it helps. I'm wondering if they have done before and after tests on these rifles for accuracy and what tests they did and what level of accuracy are they talking about. I have had two rifles with coned muzzles and they were both rather poor grouping rifles. Even after many different load combos for each. Those two barrels were already coned when I got them so I could not do a before and after test on them.

Offline Elnathan

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2017, 03:36:27 AM »
I suspect that the degree of taper and the length of the cone are important variables.
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Offline B.Habermehl

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2017, 04:38:06 AM »
I believe accuracy and coneing, is all about squareness and concentricity. The only barrel I coned myself was done in a lathe with a boring tool at 30 degrees. This included wedgeing the barrel so that there was no run out at the far end of the spindle. The barrel shoots as well as my ability to shoot from a rest. And is comparable in accuracy with any of my conventionally crowned muzzle barrels. Better eyes and sights might yield different results. With my method of coneing a barrel, for my uses I see no difference. In my opinion squareness to the bore and concentricity are the key. I will agree that a well polished conventional crown should have the edge on accuracy givin better sights and eyesight, at least in theory. BJH
BJH

Offline little joe

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2017, 05:48:23 PM »
So many folks pass on,, hear say, rumors ect, and have never tryed it.   The ones I coned myself I have shot before and after  and can tell no difference in shooting. One from Don  Getz, one from Charley Burton  came  that way and were excellent shooters also.

Offline jerrywh

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2017, 09:55:55 AM »
 I have done before and after testing at least 10  times or more because I cone all my barrels. I had one barrel that shot way off after coning so I went back and coned it again with a longer pilot coning tool and it fix it.  The accuracy was the same both ways but the guns were easier to load and I like the looks of the muzzle.
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Turtle

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Re: coning the muzzle
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2017, 01:36:54 PM »
For those unfamiliar with Joe Woods coning tool--- It is made of brass, is app 4" long, has a bore diameter "jag" at the tip and a constant slight cone from there to the muzzle The actual coning is done with sandpaper held to the cone with double stick tape. It is a tedious process turning it by hand,  cutting and changing progressively finer sandpaper, you need one for each caliber, but it is practically idiot proof. I have done app 40 muzzles with no complaints.