Author Topic: Grinding 3Fg into 4Fg  (Read 18568 times)

Offline bones92

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Re: Grinding 3Fg into 4Fg
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2017, 06:09:49 PM »
HH, I may do that.

Yes, this rifle was made in the early to mid 70's.    I have no idea if Cornell coned the inside or not.  Perhaps Marvin will know...

I also wonder if I'm using too much priming powder.   Anyone got a photo of an ideal amount of priming powder in the pan?
If it was easy, everyone would do it.

Black Hand

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Re: Grinding 3Fg into 4Fg
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2017, 06:19:24 PM »
I also wonder if I'm using too much priming powder.   Anyone got a photo of an ideal amount of priming powder in the pan?
That is a little like asking which truck is best. It will vary according to the gun/lock, the size/shape/depth of the pan and the location of the touch-hole..
I cover the bottom of the pan but not the touch-hole, close the frizzen and "toss" the rifle to the lock side to "throw" the powder away from the opening.

ltdann

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Re: Grinding 3Fg into 4Fg
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2017, 07:02:41 PM »
Here in CA, we're only allowed one (1) pound of black powder at a time....and they track it.  So I use 3f for the main charge and make my own 4f using a ball mill.

I take one of the kids old rock tumblers (plastic can and lid) put about 2 ounces  in and a handful of lead balls.  Let it rotate for about 20 minutes and you've got 4f.

Offline hanshi

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Re: Grinding 3Fg into 4Fg
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2017, 07:37:12 PM »
Vent hole size can make or break a fast ignition.  The very first thing I do with a new rifle is drill out the vent to 1/16"; lock speed is fast after that.  I also use just a smidgen (about 1/3 pan ful) for general shooting & targets.  A vent that has a 1/16" opening and is coned on the inside is, IMHO, about as good as it gets.  You may find that if you "grind" the powder it can be inconsistent as it will not be as uniform as the screened powders..  Screening the 3F is the easiest and safest way to get prime.  But honestly, I really can't tell any difference 4F vs 3F.  Follow through will negate any speed vs speed effects.   
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Offline bones92

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Re: Grinding 3Fg into 4Fg
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2017, 08:02:06 PM »
Having posted the video and watched the rifle firing a few times... it doesn't seem terribly slow. 

What do you all think? 
If it was easy, everyone would do it.

Black Hand

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Re: Grinding 3Fg into 4Fg
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2017, 08:42:57 PM »
There is a short hesitation which may be due to previously-mentioned issues. Check your touch-hole with the shank of a 1/16" bit and try a little less prime....

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Grinding 3Fg into 4Fg
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2017, 09:01:23 PM »
Build yourself a screen, and screen your other powder granulations, you will get plenty of priming powder if the other powders have been around any time at all.

  Hungry Horse

Wise guy.  8) 

I mean wise-the good kind.   ;D

Also, as Pletch determined years ago, human beings are not equipped with accurate-enough sensory perception to get "ignition speed" timing anywhere near correct. 

Pletch also explores the other factors of ignition timing in his experiments. I don't know where that info lives, but have seen it enough times that I don't fret over powder granulation for hunting purposes.  For off-hand target shooting I might, but rested target shooting nullifies the point for me.

2F in the pan (how much faster can it get?) :
https://youtu.be/Yz6z3AOxn64?t=1m08s
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 09:07:43 PM by WadePatton »
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Online Mike Brooks

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Re: Grinding 3Fg into 4Fg
« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2017, 10:21:53 PM »
After watching the video, I'd put a white lightnin' TH in it drilled out to 1/16".
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
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Offline little joe

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Re: Grinding 3Fg into 4Fg
« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2017, 10:41:24 PM »
Seeing the lock in question, it appears to be a Russ Hamm Maslin. You may not be able to speed things up much.Put a liner in it.

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Grinding 3Fg into 4Fg
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2017, 12:12:21 AM »

Also, as Pletch determined years ago, human beings are not equipped with accurate-enough sensory perception to get "ignition speed" timing anywhere near correct. 

Pletch also explores the other factors of ignition timing in his experiments. I don't know where that info lives, but have seen it enough times that I don't fret over powder granulation for hunting purposes.  For off-hand target shooting I might, but rested target shooting nullifies the point for me.

Here is the link to the testing I did.  The article is in 6 parts.  The two main questions I had was the vent location and the location of the priming powder in the pan.  There are some real myths within these two topic.  I hope the whole article is read before opinions are made.
Regards,
Pletch

https://www.blackpowdermag.com/pan-vent-experiments-an-introduction/
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

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Black Hand

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Re: Grinding 3Fg into 4Fg
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2017, 12:38:03 AM »
How about summarizing your conclusions....?

Offline Larry Pletcher

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Re: Grinding 3Fg into 4Fg
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2017, 04:47:25 PM »
How about summarizing your conclusions....?

Part 3 and Part 5 deal with the location of priming powder in the pan.

Part 3: https://www.blackpowdermag.com/part-3-photography-through-the-muzzle/

Part 5 : https://www.blackpowdermag.com/part-5-timing-powder-locations-in-pan/

Part 6 deals with high and low vent locations:  https://www.blackpowdermag.com/part-6-high-and-low-vent-experiments/

I'd encourage the reader to form their own conclusions.
Regards,
Pletch
Regards,
Pletch
blackpowdermag@gmail.com

He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what can never be taken away.

Kayla Mueller - I didn't come here of my own accord, and I can't leave that way.  Whoever brought me here, will have to take me home.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Grinding 3Fg into 4Fg
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2017, 05:00:41 PM »
I read through all of those tests last night again as I went through them when you first posted them and agree with all your findings as they mirror my shooting experiences. Thanks for doing all of these tests and publishing the results, it's good to expose some of those old wives tales with facts. Thanks again.   :)

Matt / PA

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Re: Grinding 3Fg into 4Fg
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2017, 06:26:14 PM »
I've read and reread all of Larry's findings over the years.....always good stuff. 
A little validation for why with a properly located clean vent and a good flint my extremely complex procedure of just fill the pan level with 4f and snap it shut has worked pretty flawlessly for 25+ years LOL
I never understood all the OCD ignition tricks for flintlocks like "my gun fires best with 1/4 pan full of 3F powder, lock tilted down, side smacked, banked away, only on a full moon after spinning in 3 counterclockwise circles.  LOL  :o ;D

My recipe for speed and reliability in my guns is pretty simple ....good clean internally coned vent, good fast short throw locks, good clean sharp flint....attention to detail...... and THEN just fill it full with 4F, shut it, and shoot. Repeat.
I've even widened skinny lock pans to add MORE priming powder surface area. If I were to get a weak spark for some reason, I don't want those couple of sparks on an Easter egg hunt trying to find a small 1/4 pan full of powder.  ;)

Vent style and cleanliness, lock, and flint have WAY more to do with quick reliable ignition than any pan filling gyrations, or old "Tricks" like lick your thumb and coat the pan with a thin layer of prime.

Want to slow your gun right down?..... use a small or straight vent, swab the bore between shots pushing wet fouling around, don't wipe your flint face or frizzen clean,  keep squeezing mileage out of a dull flint, a bad or slow lock or one with a long throw,  then use 3F or 2F and don't fill the pan....and for good measure bank it away. 
While any ONE of these factors can slow things down, add in 2 or 3 or all to any one shot and imperceptible can become noticeable. The stopwatch doesn't lie.

The question is just how much any of it means to any one person?........if you are happy with the fact that "your" gun is maybe firing .05 seconds slower than mine who am I to tell anyone they aren't happy!?   :)
 

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Grinding 3Fg into 4Fg
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2017, 06:48:14 PM »
HH - betcha one may also get some fine dust.

Golly gee, wonder if static electricity would set off that black dust cloud?

Nah, Real Scientific work these days sez no. And if the word "Science" is used, you gotta believe it

The following is just Lyman trying to get more money from you. They really don't know whereof they speak, no?

"Lyman #55 Powder Measure
Note: Do not use this measure for black powder. Lyman makes a similar measure for use with black powder and it has an aluminum powder hopper and brass slides for powder measurement."

And Mr. Bones - does your insurance agent know what you are about?

Suppose I should not be so sarcastic, it is not polite.

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Grinding 3Fg into 4Fg
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2017, 07:29:11 PM »
I still am floored by the 1 lb of BP at a time ..." and they track it " !!!    How would the proverbial "they" know how much you shoot ?
When shooting in some of our matches, I sometimes go through 2 or more pounds in a weekend  :o 

Offline bones92

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Re: Grinding 3Fg into 4Fg
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2017, 08:21:47 PM »
I'm leaning toward having Marvin Kemper cone the inside of the barrel. 
If it was easy, everyone would do it.

ltdann

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Re: Grinding 3Fg into 4Fg
« Reply #42 on: August 31, 2017, 08:45:44 PM »
I still am floored by the 1 lb of BP at a time ..." and they track it " !!!    How would the proverbial "they" know how much you shoot ?
When shooting in some of our matches, I sometimes go through 2 or more pounds in a weekend  :o

There's only one place in the county that I know of that even carries Goex.  Judging from the price, they know it too!  Here in CA, if you buy ANY powder (Hogdon, Reloader etc,) you have to give your address and drivers license number, which goes on a form that gets sent to the state DOJ.

Because Goex/Swiss is an explosive, your limited to 1 lb per purchase.  So I use American Pioneer for the main charge and use 3f ground to 4f for the pan.  That way, if I'm at the range and I run out of the cheaper powder I can use the Goex 3f.

Needless to say, not a lot of flintlocks being used out here.

Offline bones92

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Re: Grinding 3Fg into 4Fg
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2017, 09:16:07 PM »
ltdann,

Who knows how many muzzleloading rampages have been prevented by this enlightened policy.  :P  Dear Leader Governor of California knows best, or so they like to tell their sycophants.   I'm sure they tell themselves that they are preventing bombings by limiting BP among muzzleloading enthusiasts.  You know, because there is an epidemic of BP-fueled bombings raging in all the other states that don't police BP ownership.   :o

Meanwhile, the real crime just spirals out of control.

Sad to say, but despite being born and raised in SoCal, I will never move back.  A shame, too, because there is so much to do and see in California.
If it was easy, everyone would do it.

ltdann

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Re: Grinding 3Fg into 4Fg
« Reply #44 on: August 31, 2017, 09:25:19 PM »
ltdann,

Who knows how many muzzleloading rampages have been prevented by this enlightened policy.  :P  Dear Leader Governor of California knows best, or so they like to tell their sycophants.   I'm sure they tell themselves that they are preventing bombings by limiting BP among muzzleloading enthusiasts.  You know, because there is an epidemic of BP-fueled bombings raging in all the other states that don't police BP ownership.   :o

Meanwhile, the real crime just spirals out of control.

Sad to say, but despite being born and raised in SoCal, I will never move back.  A shame, too, because there is so much to do and see in California.

I'll never get  take my flinter hunting here.  By 2019 the state will have gone completely lead-free for hunting.  You won't be able to kill a gopher with a pellet gun without technically breaking the law.

So until they come up with  lead free round ball, I'll stick with the Tikka.

Offline hanshi

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Re: Grinding 3Fg into 4Fg
« Reply #45 on: August 31, 2017, 09:49:30 PM »
Matt / Pa brought up some thoughts that I generally agree with.  All my rifles seem to like small amounts of prime and that's what I use at the range.  But hunting is a whole, 'nother thing.  In the bush I just dump prime in the pan and never think about slow vs fast.  I just want reliability without nitpicking.
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Grinding 3Fg into 4Fg
« Reply #46 on: August 31, 2017, 10:08:59 PM »
"So I use American Pioneer for the main charge and use 3f ground to 4f for the pan"

That is the problem.  Get some real powder.

 Join a ML club.  Find out what knowledgeable shooters really do for powder in CA.   

Matt / PA

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Re: Grinding 3Fg into 4Fg
« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2017, 10:45:29 PM »
Matt / Pa brought up some thoughts that I generally agree with.  All my rifles seem to like small amounts of prime and that's what I use at the range.  But hunting is a whole, 'nother thing.  In the bush I just dump prime in the pan and never think about slow vs fast.  I just want reliability without nitpicking.

Hanshi....you should see my turkey gun! 20ga smoothbore fowler set up for straight 100% reliability.  Internally coned vent drilled out to a fat 5/64" and enough 4F powder in the Chambers Early Ketland lock pan to probably take off an eyebrow  ;D   I stall the frizzen and close it when loading so it doesn't blow too much 3F out of the vent into the pan. Vent is in a perfect sunset position to the pan and I couldn't care less if the 4F gets into the vent intermingling with the main charge. Its just one big powdery glob but it goes off like a rocket EVERYTIME.  And on a turkey gun that's priority #1.
I could probably shoot that gun hanging upside down in a tornado and it would go right off.

I have all of my guns drilled out to some degree beyond 1/16" depending on Caliber.  I like a #50 or #51 bit for .54 to .58 rifles (.067-.070) ...a #52 on my .45 (.0635) . 
All the way up to what some would consider "Blown Out" for my turkey gun at .0781
If you ever get a peek at Allen Martin's personal hunting rifle....(a .60cal) he has that puppy drilled out to about .080!  He could probably clean the vent with his pinky finger but he said it goes off like a .30-06.  ;)
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 10:48:58 PM by Matt / PA »

ltdann

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Re: Grinding 3Fg into 4Fg
« Reply #48 on: August 31, 2017, 11:01:04 PM »
"So I use American Pioneer for the main charge and use 3f ground to 4f for the pan"

That is the problem.  Get some real powder.

 Join a ML club.  Find out what knowledgeable shooters really do for powder in CA.   

Do tell, what DO knowledgeable shooters in CA use?  I shoot at one of the largest ranges in SOCAL and I'm the only flintlock shooter that the range officers have ever seen.  Draws quite the crowd actually as most don't even know what it is.  Muzzle loader club?  Hardly.

I don't have a problem using AP powder for a main charge.  Shoots just fine.  It's a cost vs driving distance thing for me.   I can drive an hour and pay $33 for one pound and burn it up in one weekend, or buy 5 lbs of AP for $16/lb and save some time and gas.

Believe me, If I could I'd mail order it by the case.  But it's CA and if I get caught with more than 1 lb on-hand, I'd probably get the chair.

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Grinding 3Fg into 4Fg
« Reply #49 on: September 01, 2017, 02:56:44 AM »
"Land of the Free," , eh .   I thought Ontario, Canada was bad, but I really feel for you. Where I live, we shoot almost every day, just walking out behind the house. My neighbours do too, and regularly blow stuff up just for the fun of it  ;D   Powder by the case, since I need to have the same lot # when loading for extreme accuracy in my 45-100 Sharps.  Seriously, going through 2 to 2 1/2 Lbs in a weekend is common.  Our bear season opens tomorrow, and I'll be using my 10 bore Chambers N.England fowling gun loaded with a .735 lead ball and 120 gr of FFg   It  doesn't have a vent liner, but is exceptionally reliable. Vent is drilled out to 5/64th's which is standard for all my flintlock guns. You may get better ignition if you drop a few grains of BP down the bore prior to loading the main charge of American Powder. If I recall correctly, the ignition temp of A.P. is higher than B.P. , which is why it's easier for the shop keepers to store and have shipped. I wish you the best of luck.  [ Time to move  :(  ]