exploding powder horns

[knappinman]

Have any of you had a horn explode while you were shooting? obviously it would be because it was not plugged before the shot was taken. I am just curious how often this happens, and what kind of injuries it causes
Jason

a couple of you replied on the old site but I just found the new site sorry for the redundancy
Jason

[Warner]

Many years ago I was attending the ONW and one morning we heard a $#*! of a blast,and went to see what happened.To make a long story short a fellow was trying to start this coffee fire w/flint & steel ;he couldn't get his spark to hold so sprinkled some power on it and didn't plug his horn.
The spark sparked the loose power and flashed into his horn and blew.
It burned all his facial hair off and burned his face.It was hard for us to tell how bad he was as his face was all black from the power.His wife and son were screaming and it took awhile to get  everyone calmed down and get him transported.
I talked with him later that year and you couldn't tell he had been burned.
The horn was one of the heavy thick imported ones, and it completly exploded.As a VP of the NMLRA I searched and found most of it and had to write a report for the insurance company ,in the event someone filed a claim;which no one did.

[Candle Snuffer]

At the last Rendezvous I attended, a man's horn exploded.  Fortunately there wasn't much powder in it, but it did catch his shirt on fire as well as burning his arm pretty bad.  He'll recover, but I expect he will always carry the scars.

His horn had one of those brass pour spouts that had the spring loaded stopper.  It was determined that he was checking his flint for spark when a hot shaving most likely flew up that spout, igniting the horn.

More then likely the spout's stopper was not closed all the way.  This in my opinion is/and always will be a hazzard type spout with spring stopper as they do get stuck open if regular care isn't performed on them by keeping them clean, and that spring loaded stopper working smoothly and closing completely as it's suppose to do.

I personally would never use one on a powder horn of mine.  I feel the wood and horn tip stoppers are the best/safest, provided you do your part by making sure you've put the stopper back in the horn and get in the habbit of sliding that horn away from your side towards your back with each shot you take, or with every checking of the flint for spark.

Now the man that this happened to is a safe shooter.  All of us who know him have always had the up-most respect for his safety habbits.   In the hot sun while shooting all day long and getting fatigued, any one of us could make the same mistake and it can happen in a heart beat.

I do hope this man returns to our sport and is not put off by what happened to him.  At last check, he has no idea what happened or that this even happened to him.  I expect there is an element of shock involved.

Just be safe and be sure your powder horn is working right, and it's always plugged when not in use.  And take that extra second to slide it away towards your rear when taking your shot, or checking your flint, or capping off for a match, hunting, or plinking outing.

[lew wetzel]

it is unfortunate!!because there has been quite a few of these accidents over the years most of the historic re-enactments wont let you load out of a horn.they require you to carry a cartridge box around your waist and all your loads pre-rolled in paper.that is fine for civil war but for earlier periods it is not pc even though it is safer.and quite a few people has quit doing them due to this new rule...

[James Rogers]

they require you to carry a cartridge box around your waist and all your loads pre-rolled in paper.that is fine for civil war but for earlier periods it is not pc even though it is safer..

Why is it not pc? Cartridges and cartridge boxes were in use in the 18th century.

[northmn]

Both the English and Americans trained in Europeon warfare carried cartridge boxes likely even in the French and Indian War.  I could show you a plan for them in the Revolutionary war sketchbook.  They were used because they could load and fire one shot every 13 seconds out of one.  Another advantage I suspect is one of economics as they rationed the powder and shot to the troopers equally and guaranteed enough powder for every ball.  They are also responsible for the reputation of very poor accuracy out of muskets.  Safety has nothing to do with it for reinactments, they are the proper method of loading.
Never saw a horn go not that type of accident.  Always wondered about folks that used spouts on cans to load off a bench.  Our club frowned on that.

DP

[lew wetzel]

no frontiersman carried them and that is what i am refering too..and militia didnt use them either.

[PINYONE]

The guy ho wanted to start his coffee fire with powder needed coffee, I bet he was wide awake when it blew. In the history of Jamestown- it was recorded that Captn. John Smith was wounded there by his horn exploding, he was badly hurt but didn't die. Rule #1- SAFETY FIRST

[Daryl]

Ctgs. are pretty cool and work well in the big bores, even rifled ones.  Buffalohunter of this forum tried them in his .54 and got equal accuracy at 50 yards to patched round balls.  His ctgs. were used as in military practise, in that the rear was torn off, them pushed into the bore, open end down. By the time you get the rod out, the powder has drained into the bore and then the ball inside the paper ctg. is pushed down on top of the powder.

You should experiment with different thickneses (weights) of paper.  I think I used 20 pound printer paper in my ctgs. which fit perfectly with a ball .007" under bore size in my .69 rifle.  You could alwasy try different dips for the front end of the ctg. to provide some lubrication if you think it's necessary.  In my .69, accuracy with pure lead balls and WW balls was identical to patched round balls at 100 yards and shot into the same group. I could fire 10 shots before the fouling got bad, then a sloppy wet patched round ball was shot with 3 drams as a cleaning load.  Then, another 10 shots could be fired, etc. Wiping wasnt' necessary as the sloppy wet patch wiped the bore clean on the way down.

I could add some more, but you get the drift.  I suspect .58 and .69 cal. military rifled muskets would shoot exceptionally well with this system.

[Roger Fisher]

I had responded on the ol .com.  Here it is again.  Quite a few yrs ago, shooting bench.  A shooter had remarked behind me at his bench that his horn was D___ near mt.  He was seen walking around with his horn spout end down leaking powder out of the plug by another shooter.....!  Strange but true....

He was shooting from the same bench he loaded at ( a nono)  He was using this leaking horn and a box of 250 caps both laying near or under his gun lock at the bench.  Witnesses stated that when he fired his rifle there were two flashes could not tell which went first the caps or the horn.  His eyebrows were burned and his beard and his eyeglasses did their job.  I was splashed across my leather jacket no harm done.  His thick horn shattered and hangs or hung in a well know ML shop.   He was proud of it seems like!

[Jim Filipski]

I also responded on the now defunct site:

Probably Good reason to make sure when you build a horn you form fit the base plug well & pin it with wood pegs (not glue it) . A horn will usually blow out the base plug if made the traditional way. Glue the plug in and it is a nice bomb.  This I have heard from a group of folks on a Rev War reenactor site that conducted experiments blowing up horns vs. cartridge boxes   To prove a point that used properly, horns are safe in re-enactments. They supposedly published their data somewhere on the net. What they found was the just pinned in plugs blew out while the glued in plugs burst every time ( I wasn't there so I can't vouch for the validity but it make good sense to me)

Anyway it didn't change much Some of the site we reenact on require us to remove the horn before taking the field or wear them empty for show. Even though my unit depicts a rifle Corps we still load from rolled cartridges in our pouches. We feel it is safer and more acceptable to the sites were we play.

As for Cartridge boxes: Some militia units carried them and they were issued to them by their local communities So they are period correct for the 18th Century
( Got lot of documentation on The Rev War because I've been living that life as a hobby for 16 years almost every weekend)
Jim

P.S. would be an interesting test for us also, but I sure don't have a supply of well built horns to blow up

[Robert Wolfe]

It seems to me that if you have a nicely scraped down (thin) horn it is going to split apart regardless of whether or not the plug is glued to pegged.

I recal seeing something on the web or perhaps in a magazine a few years ago on someone blowing up horns to see what happend.  Can't remember the particulars but it made me be a bit more careful!

[Jim Filipski]

Since the subject came up on another thread I posted this there also:

I didn't mean it to sound that glue was not acceptable I was just citing what I read a few years ago by some people running a test on powder horns to prove they were safe on the field of reenacting. There was an accident a few years ago and sites started talking about banning them at reenactments. These guys got together and blew up some horns. They suggested the tight fitting base plugs that were pegged with wood blew out the bases with out causing an explosion (calling these traditional construction) while glued bases cause the horn to blow. This was back in 1999 or 2000 they posted results  to a reenacting site that they had for Rev War. I'm wishing now I had saved the info on the site as a pdf to follow up. (that was a computer & a half ago)
Personally, I feel most folks use horns properly so any incidents like this are not the norm. When someone gets careless leaving the spout plug open for instance while firing in rank due to inexperience (or adrenaline ) it's not going to make much difference glue or not.
I wasn't questioning anyones building practices.
Sorry if it may have come across that way.
Jim

[Dphariss]

Powder containers are seldom substantial enough to produce a big bang.
Testing has shown that fusing one of the central plastic bottles in a case of powder will not even set off all the bottles in the case.
Thick metal flasks or those heavy brass priming flasks may cause a far more serious fast fire than a thin horn, thin metal flasks, thin metal cans of the past or the current plastic bottles.
With thin containers injuries are generally flash burns rather than the serious blast and shrapnel injuries associated with much faster explosives or BP contained in strong vessels.

Dan

[Daryl]

Good point, Dan. The flask I carry extra prining in, along with my brass primer, are quite stoutly built. I suspose I should be using one of my 3 horn priming flasks instead.  I do like to hit the pan with the priming spout, getting a perfect prime every time, rather than pouring from a spout'd priming horn.

[Candle Snuffer]

I've talked with a few folks who after hearing of, and seeing, a powder horn go off, some feel they may be carrying to large a horn and are advocating cutting back in horn size.

My oppinion is that if a person practices 'horn / flask' safety, they should never have a problem - then again this holds true with everything we do in our everyday life's.

I'm not going to change my horn or flask habits, but when seeing and hearing of the things that can happen with a powder horn or flask catching a spark from some direction, it's a good reminder to check and double check your equipment and how you are putting that equipment to use.

Always take that extra second or two to be sure you're safe with your chosen equipment, and that horn or flask is plugged and/or sealed.  That's the best thing we can do for not only ourself, but those around us, and for our sport we care so much about.

Being and playing it safe does not cost one red cent.  It's absolutely free and everyone is a winner when we do this.

[Dphariss]

Good point, Dan. The flask I carry extra prining in, along with my brass primer, are quite stoutly built. I suspose I should be using one of my 3 horn priming flasks instead.  I do like to hit the pan with the priming spout, getting a perfect prime every time, rather than pouring from a spout'd priming horn.

I have one of the metered things too, its in a piece of antelope horn. Been using it since the 70s and love it. Horn is probably too thick too now thinking about it....
Dan

[Roger Fisher]

It seems to me that if you have a nicely scraped down (thin) horn it is going to split apart regardless of whether or not the plug is glued to pegged.

I recal seeing something on the web or perhaps in a magazine a few years ago on someone blowing up horns to see what happend.  Can't remember the particulars but it made me be a bit more careful!

Yes, you did!  It and photos came in here on this site.  We published it in our Pennsylvania Cap & Flint newsletter (Our State organization's paper)  And the hope was that it would do exactly that.  We don't need any bad PR!

[Robert Wolfe]

I posted this in another thread on gluing powder horn plugs but it is probably a better fit here. Here are a couple of historic accounts of horns exploding with one being fatal.


I forgot to write it down but I think this one was War of 1812. The accident occured on an American privateer.

"The first The battle lasted for nearly an hour.  Tom Boyle brought up his marine detachment, commanded by Captain Robert Cascadden, and had them clear the enemy deck with musket fire.  At 1:40 P.M. the badly damaged ship struck her colors.  The Comet had two casualties; Thomas Cadle, a marine was hit in the eye by a musket ball, and William Cathell was badly wounded in the arm and leg when the powder horn exploded when he was priming his gun.
-----
The Hutchinson News
Hutchinson, Reno County, Kansas
Thursday, February 28, 1884
A young man, James Bertram, met with a horrible death last Friday, near his home in Little River township.  He had been out hunting and the theory is his powder horn exploded, tearing out his bowels and setting fire to his clothes.  He was discovered by the school children who saw the smoke.  They then carried water in hats and extinguished it, finding young Bertram charred almost beyond recognition.  He was buried on the following day.

[Gene Carrell]

After once finding the plug on my horn hanging by it's tether cord during a woodswalk, I've cut the tethers on all my horns on the theory that if the plug is held between my teeth while measuring out powder, I will replace it and not forget.

[Teach]

Here's a link to the story.
http://www.krvn.com/news/index/ef43337d-368b-4977-ac1e-df66910f9cce

Cheers Teach

[Daryl]

You might have something there. Gene, but I'd love it for sure. Hate to pull the wrong plug out of my mouth and end up stuffing a cigar into my powder horn. Just kidding. I smoke a pipe nowadays and only for another couple weeks.

[Dphariss]

Here's a link to the story.
http://www.krvn.com/news/index/ef43337d-368b-4977-ac1e-df66910f9cce

Cheers Teach

I wonder if he will go back to a wooden stopper for his new horn.

Dan

[Candle Snuffer]

I don't know, but I think it would be wise.  

I think it's one thing to use those
brass tube flask's with spring stoppers when shooting from the box, but quite another to be using them when loading from the pouch.  The tube is still a spark catcher, and how can a person be sure the "powder dust" residue left behind on the inside of the brass tube won't ignite even if the spring stopper is closed?  Or perhaps it could be stuck open just enough to allow a potential spark that might go in the brass tube to ignite the horn?

I'll stick with the plug...

[TPH]

...and militia didnt use them either.

Lew, where in the world did you come up with that idea? Maybe the so-called rifle armed "frontiersman" didn't use a cartridge box or pre-rolled cartridges (debatable) but the musket-armed militia most certainly did. Those enrolled in regular army rifle companies carried both cartridges with undersized balls as well as horns with pre-patched balls. Use of either depended upon circumstances and how they were deployed..