Patchbox: the "captured lid" style

[JohnnyFM]

I'm asking in hopes the good folks here can straighten me out on the origin/appropriateness of the "captured lid" style of patchbox a la Hershel House.  I really do like this style but would it really be appropriate for an "early Virginia" style rifle? 
If not, how about the "simple release" used on this style?  Ya know, the spring nail type thingy that holds the lid in the closed position?  I really do like the simplicity of the design.

I attempted to locate this subject by searching the ALR archives but to no avail.

The rifle I'm building is brass mounted with a nice wide butt plate.  It's based on the nice "kit" from Cabin Creek; I started it a while back when I took Brad and Shane Emig's rifle building class and I'm itchin' to get er done.


Thanks.

Johnny

[Mike Brooks]

I have seen these on NC guns and rifles built in KY. Neither of these schools used the nail as a latch. I'm sure these were used elsewhere as well, but I don't think it's an "early" thing in an actual historic context. More Of a "Woodbury School" thing, and there is nothing wrong with that, a lot of that kind of stuff gets made and people like it...including myself.

[n stephenson]

Jacob Young built rifles with the captured lid. He may have worked earlier but, I think most of his work is post 1800.  JMHO   Nate

[Eric Kettenburg]

I think the earliest of them are probably the two or three boxes that Wallace illustrated in his Muzzle Blasts series of articles concerning RCA42.  There seem to be a series of later cast, captured lid boxes which utilize an outline similar to the box lid on 42 (which of course is side opening sheet) and which possibly were developed somewhere in the Carolinas, or possibly TN?  IIRC, one or two of them were archaeological remnants and there may have been one or maybe two surviving guns w/ the same box type?  I think all were datable to perhaps the 1780s post-war at the earliest, or more likely 1790-1800 period or something like that.  It's been a few years since I've visited this topic.  Those seem to be the earliest that I recall seeing anywhere.

[bama]

Thomas Simpson made rifles that had captured lid boxes. Of the two known guns by him one is dated 1791 and the other is dated 1803. I have a third rifle that is related to the Simpson rifles that also has a captured lid that is of Simpson's design but not by his hand.

[n stephenson]

Thomas Simpson made rifles that had captured lid boxes. Of the two known guns by him one is dated 1791 and the other is dated 1803. I have a third rifle that is related to the Simpson rifles that also has a captured lid that is of Simpson's design but not by his hand.

Hey Bama, any chance you would post pics of the Simpson related piece?

[jcmcclure]

I think the earliest of them are probably the two or three boxes that Wallace illustrated in his Muzzle Blasts series of articles concerning RCA42.  There seem to be a series of later cast, captured lid boxes which utilize an outline similar to the box lid on 42 (which of course is side opening sheet) and which possibly were developed somewhere in the Carolinas, or possibly TN?  IIRC, one or two of them were archaeological remnants and there may have been one or maybe two surviving guns w/ the same box type?  I think all were datable to perhaps the 1780s post-war at the earliest, or more likely 1790-1800 period or something like that.  It's been a few years since I've visited this topic.  Those seem to be the earliest that I recall seeing anywhere.

Can you recall the contributed or signed rifle maker? The earliest of the captured lid boxes that I have seen was a side opening post rev war, but pre 19th century. That rifle was made or contributed to John Fanoe (I know the spelling on the last is not spelled as I have it).

[rich pierce]

Fainot.

[jcmcclure]

Fainot.

You got it! I had to ask Frank House. He introduced me your the rifle when I worked with the Kentucky Dept of Parks.

[JohnnyFM]

Thank you all kindly for your replies.

[bama]

Nate

I will try to take some pictures today or tomorrow of the captured lid boxes and get them posted for you.

Jim

[JohnnyFM]

Thanks Jim.  I am looking forward to it.

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

  .... Alfred Farrington Gross used a "captured" TENNESSEE "banana" style patchbox on some  of his fancy rifles ....