Heavy rifles, tired old arms...

[Harnic]

I built my Track early fullstock flint Hawken 4 years ago using all 42" of the supplied GM 1" 50 cal barrel.  I have fought with how muzzle heavy it is since.  Last fall I tried drilling holes under the butt plate & inserting copper pipe filled with lead as counter-weight.  Initially it seemed to help, but the weight of the rifle was increased by 1.9 pounds, almost all of which still rests on my left hand.  Yesterday I pulled those lead filled pipes out & checked the weight.  With lead in, the rifle weighed 12.9 pounds on my digital scale.  Without the lead an even 11 pounds.  It's still muzzle heavy, but 1.9 pounds is 15% of the full weight & worth losing regardless of balance.  I find now I am slightly steadier shooting off hand.  Maybe it's time to grind off the hidden (bottom) peaks of the octagonal barrel to make it round & therefore lighter where it doesn't show!   My research shows that a barrel as long as mine was not unheard of on early flint Hawkens (some were even longer), especially on rifles for the domestic market as opposed to the later rifles demanded by moutainmen travelling out west.  They were either a LOT stronger than me or rarely shot without a rest.

[Roger B]

That 1" .50 cal barrel is a beast at 42".  You could cut it back 6 or 8" & make it look like a rifle that had been shot out/shortened, broken/shortened, or shortened for horseback service & still have an authentic rifle.  You could also rebarrel in .54 or .58 & get some weight loss.  I don't think that grinding down the bottom flats will make it any better than a rebarrel.
Roger B.

[Robert Wolfe]

Harry,

I know you built and love that gun but you've been struggling with the balance for some time now. Perhaps it's time to retire it to the wall and build another that serves you better. Life is to short to compromise with a half-way fix unless you simply have to. Something to consider anyway.

[Harnic]

Harry,

I know you built and love that gun but you've been struggling with the balance for some time now. Perhaps it's time to retire it to the wall and build another that serves you better. Life is to short to compromise with a half-way fix unless you simply have to. Something to consider anyway.

Robert, you & I are on the same page on this one!  I am buying parts to go with my last hand rifled barrel I made 28 years ago, a 32" long, 15/16" across the flats .54 cal barrel.  I plan on a nice light Hawken halfstock percussion rifle.  I really enjoy shooting my fullstock flinter from a rest & prefer a flintlock, but bp is getting more scarce on this side of the border all the time & the day will come when we will either have to shoot subs (which don't work well in a flintgun) or make our own bp, which is a much more serious charge in Canada than growing pot!

Roger, I considered your suggestions of altering my rifle, but I really like the look the way it is on my office wall & shortening it throws the barrel keys & rod ferrules all out of whack.  In hindsight I should have built a 58 or 62 cal rifle for the weight savings I need.  What the heck!  We can all use another rifle!  I'll get all the parts I need together by next winter & build the new halfstock caplock Hawken while the snow takes all the fun out of shooting!

[RobertS]

Is it possible that rounding the corners of the barrel that don't show could release some tensions in the barrel and cause it to warp or have some other unintended consequences?  Seems like I've heard or read that somewhere before, but that may have been in reference to swamping a formerly straight sided barrel. 

[Harnic]

Good point RobertS.  While I wasn't serious about rounding the underside of the barrel, doing so would cause the barrel to expand faster on the bottom because with less metal, it would have less heat capacity so the point of impact would very likely change erratically.  I'm pretty sure GM stress relieves their barrels so there would be none to release.

[Daryl]

Good point RobertS.  While I wasn't serious about rounding the underside of the barrel, doing so would cause the barrel to expand faster on the bottom because with less metal, it would have less heat capacity so the point of impact would very likely change erratically.  I'm pretty sure GM stress relieves their barrels so there would be none to release.

I would be concerned about an uneven heating and contracting with the points gone and possible bending as the barrel warms up.  It may or may not do this, but even losing 8 ounces might make it worth while, Harry.

Lighter with larger balls means a bit more recoil, of course. 15/16" in .54 - light and easy to handle, but kick?

[Harnic]

Morning Daryl!  I rifled a dozen of these 54 cal 15/16" barrels way back when & built a flint halfstock "Hawken" on 1.  The recoil didn't get rude until I got past 180 gr 3f GOEX, a load I won't need now that I don't hunt.  My next rifle will be light & easy to handle on long trail walks.  With a 70-90 gr powder charge the recoil will be a total non-issue.  Finances won't likely allow me to get all the parts on time for this year's Heffley shoot (missed too much work this past winter), but it'll be there next year!

[Dan]

My .45 GM barrel is not so broad across the flats but is 42" long.  The gun weighs 7# and a few ounces....7 maybe? Don't remember actually, but weight is not an issue, nor is balance.

[Harnic]

Dan, a 7# rifle with a 42" barrel would be heaven!  It must be a sweetheart on those long trails!  I suspect my next Hawken (caplock) will weigh near the same as yours, but with a much shorter barrel (32") the balance will be nicely back of my left (supporting) hand.

[stuart cee dub]

Hi Harnic,
15/16 across the flats in a .50 makes a good steady rifle in a 32'' Hawken.The balance point, weight and recoil all seem to work out making a good ergonomic gun .
I am working on a Hawken style, a.54,an inch across the flats at 32''right now and have enough of it whittled down to get an idea of the balance etc.Nice but not as nice as the forementioned .50
Straight barrels in my humble opinion (unless really thin and flint)just don't have the right feel in a long barreled gun ,32'' maybe 35'' in some cases is as long as I will ever build .

As an aside I have been wondering if black powder substitutes and the likely increasing restrictions for the genuine article may force more of the community into shooting percussion guns as the substitues seem to be hard to light with flint.Ironically a friend of mine who works at the Federal plant in Anoka tells me that CCI percussion primers are made on the same plant as cartridge primers which  now pretty scarce.Hopefully the backlog in cartridge primers will not put a crimp in future percussion primers.

From what I understand Harnic BP is pricy and scarce in the Grandmother country,
Is this affecting your future build plans at all?

[Harnic]

Hi Stuart,
My hand rifled barrel is 15/16" across the flats in 54 cal, so nice & light at 32" long.  I had a similar rifle 30 years ago with a 36" barrel from the same lot & it was a treat... very accurate & handled exceptionally well offhand.  This shorter length should more than compensate for the intervening 30 years.   

I certainly hope caps don't get as scarce as primers seem to be down south!  A pet peeve of mine has been why are caps twice the cost of primers with half the components?  I am able, for now to buy GOEX for $24.95 a pound which is around $20 US, but only one shop in the area carries it where any place that carries smokeless powder has Hodgdon 777.  The potential shortage is the only reason I am building this next rifle in caplock.  In Canada a caplock is considered a modern firearm & must be registered where a flinter is considered an antique with no registration or even license required so obviously a flintlock is more desirable.

[Leatherbelly]

Harry,
 That thin .54 barrel  might go better in an English flint sporting rifle along the lines of Daryls? ...or a fullstock ESR .  Better buttpate, and they seem to soak up the recoil better than a Hawken .  Flints are still reasonably priced also. Caps...not so. Just another option...srry,just me thinking out loud!

[Harnic]

Howdy LB!  I was wondering when you'd chime in!   I didn't find the recoil a problem even with 200 gr 3f GOEX on the original halfstock "Hawken" I used the first of my hand-rifled barrels on.   It was on 1 of those cheap Italian "Hawkens" of the day.  I know I won't have any problem with loads to at least 100 grs 3f which is as high as I should need to go for my uses.

I am going caplock mainly in case bp gets harder to come by but also so that I can carry my cap & ball revolver around as part of my costume at shoots, the Hawken was still widely used when cap & ball revolvers were common.  I will still shoot my flintlock most of the time, the Hawken will be for trail walks & fort shoots as well as any events requiring many offhand shots.

See you at Heffley my friend! 

[LynnC]

OK Harnic, I know you've thought about rebarreling it - Going to 58 will knock off near a pound and 62 might be closer to 2 lbs off.  Then put the 1" - 50 in the for sale section and cut your cost way down.  Course that 1" - 62 might be a more expensive custom , but the 58 is of the shelf.  Just some thoughts to get you back on the range............................Lynn

[Harnic]

Ty Lynn, I have considered doing just that, but I've been saving the last of my barrels for a special project for almost 30 years.  If I don't use it soon, it'll be too late!   I would like a shorter, handier rifle for trail walks etc. & would like another Hawken caplock.

I am shooting my flintlock frequently, just seldom offhand. 

[Daryl]

Harry- that sounds like my wife's Seneca - I've been 're-barreling' it for about 30 years now and finally got it done.

[Harnic]

Daryl, picture a Seneca with a longer, slightly more robust stock & you have what I want to create! 

[Dan]

Dan, a 7# rifle with a 42" barrel would be heaven!  It must be a sweetheart on those long trails!  I suspect my next Hawken (caplock) will weigh near the same as yours, but with a much shorter barrel (32") the balance will be nicely back of my left (supporting) hand.

Actual specs:

Barrel is 42”, 13/16” flats . Double set triggers, Early English lock by RE Davis Co.  Weight is 7.42 pounds, LOP is 14.5”. Deep red curly maple, all metal finished brown. 1:60 twist.

[Harnic]

WOW!  I love it!  Thanks for posting those pix Dan, she's a real beaut!

[Dave Faletti]

One thought is to use a tapered or swamped barrel where the initial taper is rather long.  My next percussion halfstock is using one like that.  Not really a Hawken but works nice. Lets you have a long barrel and decent balance and weight.  My focus has been more on fit, function with a style and technology that could have been.  Being a lefty my choice on components kind of forces me to be different as it is.  I have a rifle with a straight 36" X 1" in 50 and 58.  The 50 works well for target but is at the max weight for me.  The 58 is nice for field work. 

[Harnic]

Dave, my 54 cal, 15/16" across, 32" long barrel will be nice & light, recoil is not an issue even with hunting loads which I won't need.  This barrel is the last of a dozen I hand rifled in 1981 & have been saving since.  Hopefully it will shoot as well as the first one did.  The rifle's not going to be perfectly accurate copy of a Hawken because of the weight of the barrel, but close.  I look forward to shooting a caplock.  My first venture into muzzle loading was an Italian percussion "Hawken" kit in 45 cal w' a 28" barrel.  I didn't use it long before I was convinced by an acquaintance to convert it to flint with a 32" 50 cal Sharon barrel & L&R Late English lock. 
 
Dave, I contacted Joe & Suzi Williams at The Gun Works Muzzle Loading Emporium in Springfield Oregon, really nice folks!  Thanks for suggesting their business!  They have the L&R lock, trigger, breech plug/tang & several other goodies I need and "put them aside" for me no deposit required!  I am impressed.  They'll be getting more business from me down the road.  I look forward to meeting them in June on our way south to my wife's family reunion.

[Dan]

WOW!  I love it!  Thanks for posting those pix Dan, she's a real beaut!

You are welcome sir.  I guess the point of mentioning the gun is that weight in ML rifles is not beyond regulation to a degree.  My left handed way of saying they don't have to weigh a ton.  Well, they don't ALL have to weigh a lot.  Wouldn't be wanting a slug gun of that poundage, but it works for field use.  I was pleasantly surprised to find it much more tractable in close cover than I first imagined.  And the balance is as close to perfect as a fellow could want for offhand work.  Did I mention the sight radius leaves it as one of the few iron sighted rifles I can use with tired ol' eyes? 

If it had a bayonet lug it would be perfect for hogs in the swamp.

[Harnic]

I went out shooting my heavy beast yesterday for a few hours at the club.  I guess I'm just getting fired up about the new project (half stock cap Hawken) but I sure didn't have as much fun as I'd hoped.  I got 2 bad flints in a row & managed to smash them both apart in a total of 20 shots!  Never had that happen before, I usually get 60-80 shots per flint!  This beautiful fullstock flint Hawken will definitely spent a lot more time on display in my office as soon as the new caplock is done!  I might have to move the new rifle to the front burner & get it done on time for the Heffley creek shoot at the end of Aug!  Hmmm... with my moving away from the flint longrifle philosophy, do I have to leave this fine forum too?! 

[hanshi]

   Fraid so, Mr. Harnic.  On second thought, don't ask, don't tell; or something to that effect.