R. Southland Flint Rifle

[Tadlock]

I have a R Southgate Flint rifle that belonged to my Stepfather. In reading the posts on this web site I have understood that Southgate stamped numbers onto his rifles and that these numbers were near the breach plug or tang.

The rifle that I have has no number but is marked in the appropriate location with a "wilted" flower. The barrel has R. Southgate on it as does the side lock. An inletted Masonic emblem is located by the tang as is an "H" for my Stepfathers first name.

My Stepfather scratched his name and a date on the patch box. It is dated Aug. 31 , 1947 Chicago IL. This would have been when my Stepfather lived in Chicago. (He was in the habit of marking his guns so I believe that this date is correct.)

I would like to find out if this rifle was made for my Stepfather by Southgate. Any additional information would be appreciated. (Photos attached.)

John Tadlock
























ADDITIONAL IMAGES ADDED 9/17

[sqrldog]

Tadlock
Do a search for Royland Ives Southgate. I believe your rifle is probably an early rifle made by Southgate while living in Madison Tn prior to his move to Franklin Tn. I'm not sure when he started seial numbering his rifles. The one I have is serial numbered.. Do a search on ALR as he has been discussed on this site several times. Tim

[Tadlock]

Thank you for your reply and help.
The rifle is in great shape. I'll probably keep it and shoot it.
Later on passing it onto my Grandson.
John

[Treebeard]

It would be interesting to see a full length picture of this rifle.

[smokinbuck]

I knew Royland and have a friend with a compilation of all the rifles he built. I don't remember ever seeing a signature like the one shown. The ones I am familiar with were stamped in script and all numbered. This one "may" be a real early one but I wouldn't bet on it. I'll have my friend take a look at what you have pictured.
Mark

[Cades Cove Fiddler]

  .... about 40 years ago there was a gunmaker around Franklin TN (name was Alan ) who had a bunch of R. Southgate locks and other gunmaking parts he got from Southgates widow .....all were marked with script signature .....I think Alan had worked with Southgate in his later years ......

[Mike Brooks]

I knew Royland and have a friend with a compilation of all the rifles he built. I don't remember ever seeing a signature like the one shown. The ones I am familiar with were stamped in script and all numbered. This one "may" be a real early one but I wouldn't bet on it. I'll have my friend take a look at what you have pictured.
Mark

.I don't believe there would be any profit in forging Southgate guns.

[sqrldog]

There was a Southgate for sale on one of the gun sellers (gun broker?) had a scratched in signature on barrel stamped signature on lock. Didn't make the $999. Opening bid. Agree with Mike not much need to forge one. Tim

[smokinbuck]

Mike,
If that was the intent it was a pretty bad effort.
Mark

[Tadlock]

Thanks to all who have posted on this topic.

I added some additional pictures that may give some clue as to when this flint rifle was made by Southgate.

John Tadlock

[Mike Brooks]

I don't know when he started building. This looks like something out of the 1950's or possibly the early 60's. This one looks better than most of the Southgate rifles I have seen.
1947 is the year of your father's birth?

[Tadlock]

I don't know when he started building. This looks like something out of the 1950's or possibly the early 60's. This one looks better than most of the Southgate rifles I have seen.
1947 is the year of your father's birth?

Mike, 1947 is not his birthday. I believe that it was when he received the rifle from Southgate.
Thanks for looking.
John

[Mike Brooks]

I don't know when he started building. This looks like something out of the 1950's or possibly the early 60's. This one looks better than most of the Southgate rifles I have seen.
1947 is the year of your father's birth?

Mike, 1947 is not his birthday. I believe that it was when he received the rifle from Southgate.
Thanks for looking.
John

Well then, that's most likely when it was built. I'd say that's a pretty early one.

[DICKH]

       In 1949 E. M. Farris was selling unfinished rifles for Southgate so he could spend his time building
rifles. The rifles had plain maple stocks, single triggers, barrels were 40'' long and app. 42 cal.The picture
in the ad looked like there was a lot of wood left to remove.

       How would you know if a rifle was finished by Southgate or was a unfinished rifle finished by
someone else?

  Richard Henderson

[smokinbuck]

The following is a little bit wordy but I think anyone who knew or knew of Royland Southgate will appreciate this information. These words are not mine but come from a friend, confidant and shooting partner of Royland's.

 "The rifle in question definitely appears to be a very early Southgate rifle and the 1947 date would be correct. Notice that the stamp on the lock is not the one usually seen. I think I have seen a barrel signature like that one although his script signings in later years were much nicer. He had a script stamp made (I don't know when) and usually used it on both the the barrel and lock. The later script engravings on the barrels were usually for "specials" made for friends or done on request for other customers. Most bore stamped-script markings.

In my experience Southgate always stamped a serial number just forward of the breech plug. The earliest I have seen was number 7. It is possible that this rifle predates #7. He serial numbered 1008 before his death in 1979.

I don't think I have seen a Masonic emblem on a Southgate rifle but I am sure he would put t on at request. It also could have been added by the owner. The eagle patch box is one I have never seen but the panels are not unusual. His later eagle patch box finial was a federal eagle with wide spread wings."

AS said, this gentleman was very close to Royland and has spent a great deal of time compiling records of his work. I hope this has helped answer some of the questions regarding this rifle.
Mark

[sqrldog]

That's my opinion also my Southgate has a stamped lock plate but has his signature engraved on the barrel.  Tim

[Mike Brooks]

I can't imagine building 1008 guns.

[oldtravler61]

  Mike an he did it way before the kits hit the market.
  Maybe he kept to a certain style an a solid work process. Whatever he did he was good at it.  Mike

[dbraw]

A couple of friends and I visited R. Southgate in 1959 and enjoyed seeing his shop. He was quite a character. After he died two other friends bought all his tools from his widow. One of them was Charlie Haffner, Jr. I think the tools have been sitting in Charlie's barn for about 25 years. Unused.

[Eddie Southgate]

 I have the rifle he made for my Dad as a Christmas gift in 1949 . The barrel is signed the same as this rifle but the lock has the stamped signature . It has no serial number . I don't think he numbered all of his earliest rifles . This is a good rifle and I would be interested to know your stepfathers name as I have a hand full of letters that customers sent him after receiving their rifles .

  Eddie Southgate

[Tadlock]

The following is a little bit wordy but I think anyone who knew or knew of Royland Southgate will appreciate this information. These words are not mine but come from a friend, confidant and shooting partner of Royland's.

 "The rifle in question definitely appears to be a very early Southgate rifle and the 1947 date would be correct. Notice that the stamp on the lock is not the one usually seen. I think I have seen a barrel signature like that one although his script signings in later years were much nicer. He had a script stamp made (I don't know when) and usually used it on both the the barrel and lock. The later script engravings on the barrels were usually for "specials" made for friends or done on request for other customers. Most bore stamped-script markings.

In my experience Southgate always stamped a serial number just forward of the breech plug. The earliest I have seen was number 7. It is possible that this rifle predates #7. He serial numbered 1008 before his death in 1979.

I don't think I have seen a Masonic emblem on a Southgate rifle but I am sure he would put t on at request. It also could have been added by the owner. The eagle patch box is one I have never seen but the panels are not unusual. His later eagle patch box finial was a federal eagle with wide spread wings."

AS said, this gentleman was very close to Royland and has spent a great deal of time compiling records of his work. I hope this has helped answer some of the questions regarding this rifle.
Mark

Thanks for your comments Smokin. It adds some meat to the bone on the history of this Southgate rifle.