Ram rod entry thimble help

[ltdann]

So I'm about half-way through a build of a walnut Jaeger kit rifle, got the butt plate in, trigger's and guard installed without too many problems.  Then....the entry thimble.

Nothing I did would make the ram rod go thru the thimble into the hole.  I chased the inletting black until it looked like an angry beaver got after it..... I mean I spent two days...full days on this. 

Even perfectly level with the ramrod  channel, it wouldn't go into the entry.  So I walked away.

Today, I realize the ramrod channel is NOT inline with the entry hole.  As the ram rod goes into the entry hole, it begins to impact the side of the stock...it's 1/4" off center at the entry.

I've kept the barrel pinned in place...could it have warped?  Drilled wrong?

More importantly, how do I fix it?

I'm probably going to have to mill some wood out and replace the angry beaver antics, but I don't want to do anything until I get the underlying problem fixed first.

Help!

[oldtravler61]

  Itdann If it was me I would pull the barrel out. If nothing more to see what is binding or stopping the ramrod from going in.
  Could it be hitting a barrel pin? Just my thoughts.  Oldtravler

[TommyG]

I agree with Oldtravler.  I would really take a close look at possibly the pins or maybe a chip of wood or something blocking the hole.  A 1/4" is quite a lot to be off.  I think you would have noticed that while inletting as well.  Maybe get your hands on a bore light and see what is going on.  If you could, try and post some pics here.  I'm sure it will be something that someone has encountered and has a solution to.

[ltdann]

I'll take a look, but I don't have that pin in..just to prevent that kind of thing.

I mean, the ramrod barely goes in the hole before it stops dead against the side.  I guess I got so focused on the inletting that I didn't notice.  I measure the 1/4 off center when the rod stopped.  Weird.

[54ball]

I mean, the ramrod barely goes in the hole before it stops dead against the side.

 The rammer as bought will not fit into the thimble. The rod has to be scraped or sanded down to fit in the thimbles and the ramrod hole. The ramrod has to be fit to the rifle like everything else.

 Check and see it the rod is too large to enter the thimble. If cast, sometimes the thimbles need a drill run through them to clean them up. Not a lot, just to clean it up.

 Photos would help a great deal. Without photos we are flying blind.

 Some points....

 A tapered rod should follow a crooked channel to a point. The more crooked..the more taper.
 The thimbles guide the rod too.
 Most Rifles built with proper architecture, most of the ramrod channel is shavings on the floor so there is things you can do....
 It is possible to move the entry thimble back towards the lock....thus shortening the lower forestock...maybe this is an option....the nuclear option.

 As said without photos of the problem we can only guess what the problem is...much les the solution.
 

[ltdann]

That's what I'm saying, the rod won't go into the entry hole  cleanly, even without the thimble.  That's why I think the stock is either warped or not drilled correctly (which I find hard to believe).

[Black Hand]

Use the entry pipe and the rammer channel as templates and drill the hole so the rammer will fit...
You may need to plug the existing hole and a drill new hole in the forestock.

[54ball]

That's what I'm saying, the rod won't go into the entry hole  cleanly, even without the thimble.  That's why I think the stock is either warped or not drilled correctly (which I find hard to believe).

 Taper the rod and see if it goes into the stock hole. You may find go goes further and further down each time you scrape more wood off the rod the higher up the rod you go. Do this until it fits.

[ltdann]

Extra long drill bit?

[WKevinD]

Having that entry thimble(or even the middle thimble) off by just a few degrees in any direction can screw the pooch so to speak
Remove all thimbles - if the rammer goes in you need to look at your inlets, if not you need to taper your rod or get a drill bit.
Kevin

[Chowmi]

Remove all thimbles - if the rammer goes in you need to look at your inlets, if not you need to taper your rod or get a drill bit.
Kevin

Yup.
As stated earlier, pictures would help.
Start by looking at the relationship between the RR channel in the fore end and the hole in the lower fore end where the entry thimble goes, do this without the entry thimble on.
They should line up pretty much exact because the channel is used to guide the drill.
If they don't line up, that's one problem.

If they do line up, then it is either a small hole or a ramrod that is too thick. As someone mentioned, ramrods off the shelf are unlikely (as in almost never) gonna fit until you scrape or sand them down.
I'm guessing it's not the small hole. You could check this using regular drill bits.  Try one at 3/8ths of an inch diameter, or whatever size the RR hole was supposed to be. This one will probably not fit. Don't lose it down the hole! 
If it doesn't fit, go to a slightly smaller size and repeat until one will just fit. Then you know the size of the hole as it was drilled.
While you are doing this, you will also likely figure out if the alignment is correct. The drill bit that just fits the hole correctly should also lay straight in the RR groove.

That should all tell you what size hole it is and if is out of alignment.

Then you can decide whether to scrape the ramrod down to size or get a ramrod drill and drill it to size. I would go with the least destructive if you can.

Cheers,
Norm

[thecapgunkid]

Without pictures the more advice you get here the more complicated and potentially irreversible your problem might become.

Also, don't assume anything. If you start dinking around in areas of the stock you can't put your eyes on and you can end up doing exactly the wrong thing.

There are names on this forum  with a ton of talent that you will grow to recognize with more and more access.  Load 'em up with pictures and your problem will get solved.

Don't shoot yore eye out, kid
The Capgun Kid

[Gaeckle]

Is this a pre-carve syock or are youworking from a blank?

[ltdann]

I'll try and get some pictures tonight.  It's a precarve stock and the ramrod channel is 3/8".   I have a length of scraped ramrod left over from the last project that I use as a sanding block, even that won't slide in very far.  I haven't even started trying to inlay the front or middle thimbles.

I'm positive that the ramrod channel is NOT inline with the entry hole.   I've considered blocking the  stock and using deflection pressure to attempt a realignment, but that throws the barrel inlay out of whack as well.

Before I drill, I'll need to extrapolate the degree/line of misalignment through the stock and make sure I don't interfere with anything else, or (worst case) drill through the side.  Unfortunately, it deflects towards the lock mortise so that leaves me even less margin for error.  I'm leaning towards this method because otherwise what do I align the entry thimble with?  The straight RR channel or the misaligned hole?

But before I attempt that, I'll sacrifice a RR and scrape and see if I can get it to deflect that much.

Decisions, decisions.

[L. Akers]

I don't car for this method, but as a last resort to save the stock you could route a groove in the bottom of the barrel channel and then apply a patch--or not.

[Scota4570]

" (which I find hard to believe)."  Would not surprize me in the slightest.  I just threw away an expensive precarve stock.  It was junk.  I did not spot the problem before I worked on it.  That is why I am  done with ordinary precarve stocks. 

More constructively, take a big tapered rat tail file.  Bend the tang so you can use it to work the ram rod hole into alignment with the ramrod groove.   Once the entry is true, use a ramrod drill to make the rest of the ram rod hole useable.  Hopefully it won't bust out the side of the stock.  You probbaly should drill a feeler hole to see where the existing ramrod hole ended up at the breech end.  If they started the drilling in left field there is no telling where the hole ended up. 

Good luck.

[P.W.Berkuta]

In my opinion both Black Hand & Scota4570 have the best answer to your dilemma. I'd do Black Hand's suggestion first -- but that's just my opinion

[Scota4570]

I should have mentined....

IF the hole at the breech end is screwed up, don't drill it bigger, willie nellie.  You can make a tool to internally scrape the hole on only side only.  Somebody here recenlty posted how to make the tool and do this. 

[ltdann]

Use the entry pipe and the rammer channel as templates and drill the hole so the rammer will fit...
You may need to plug the existing hole and a drill new hole in the forestock.

I don't car for this method, but as a last resort to save the stock you could route a groove in the bottom of the barrel channel and then apply a patch--or not.

Well, I've got a ramrod drill ordered, just in case.  So what I think I hear you guys are saying is it's possible to plug the hole, apply a patch from the barrel channel and re-drill using the RR channel as the guide?  If so, that's something I feel is within my abilities. 

Still need to explore a few more things, take more measurements etc......

[ltdann]

When I got home, I put a straight edge on the forearm and discovered a slight warp which probably contributed to the overall problem.  Rather than drill, which frankly terrifies me, decided to do two of the things you guys recommended.

First measured the distance the RR will actually be in the stock and transferred that measurement to the RR.  I chucked it up in my hand drill that was secured in the vice..basically used it as a lathe.  Sanded the RR with 50 grit from the mark to the tip, putting a taper on it.

Then I fired up the forge and made this tool



I ran it into the entry hole a dozen times and tried the modified RR.  It went it but very tightly.  I think with a dozen more strokes into the entry and maybe little more sanding on the RR I'll be good.

Thanks guys!

[KentSmith]

Looks like you figured it out. I usually fit the ramrod early before i do the thimbles. I have the barrel in and pinned because sometimes the rear barrel tennon enters the rod cavity and can block the rod.  You always need to taper the rod. I can make sure the rod fits the hole full depth. Most likely more tapering or cleaning of the thimbles will also be needed later for the final fit.  I do this whether it is a prevarve or i drilled the hole

[thecapgunkid]

KentSmith... I usually fit the ramrod early before i do the thimbles.

Yup.

Pays to start simple. My ramrod drill bit was worth every cent because I have taken to running it into the hole before I start anything.

Real slow on the drill speed, tight lacing on the stock  and just a little bend upward with the drill and now I notice on my last few builds that I have less work to do on the rod itself after the thimbles are set.  I have also run the 3/8th bit through the thimbles.

Since the reliable vendors will take back a bad part, I learned from guys on this forum and the masters in the dvd's to check everything out before starting work.

So far the only consequence I have paid is smoother passage through the thimbles, less tapering on the rod and some minor clutter coming out of the stock hole.

HOWSOME EVER...the most important lesson these guys here taught me with their posts is how much it pays to proceed slowly and carefully because a mistake early usually breeds into other mistakes.

Good luck and try to get back some of the sleep you lost figuring this thing out.

Don't shoot yore eye out, kid
The Capgun Kid