Dry old original pouch

[David Rase]

I need some advice on what to do with an original shooting bag and horn I picked up at the Baltimore antique arms show.  The bag is all there.  The strap is in several pieces.  I made a display and mounted the bag and horn but the leather is old, thin and dry.  My biggest concern is the fold at the top of the bag for the flab.  Even I have to flip open the flap every once and a while to take a peak in the bag.  I would like to at least stop any further deterioration.  The flap still has patches of hair left on it.  Any help and recommendations on how to preserve the leather will be greatly appreciated.
DMR 

[G-Man]

David - sent you a PM.  One of my suggestions is to ask Tim Albert though so hopefull he'll chime in when he sees this 

Guy

[art riser]

You might want to talk to Joe Mills also.  Joe is great at restoring old pouches.  In the mean time don't do anything.  It's very easy to turn old leather into a useless mess.

[TPH]

David, take a look at this publication from the National Park Service - "Curatorial Care of Objects Made From Leather and Skin Products":

http://www.nps.gov/history/museum/publications/MHI/Appendix%20S.pdf

It will give you a start and help you separate the rare good advice from the very common bad advice often found.

[Brian]

Tough call David.  To be able to safely open and close it without damaging the aged leather I would think that you will have to “soften” or “recondition” the leather.  But I don’t know what the “rules” are with something like that.  With old furniture you generally do not refinish or you devalue the piece.  No sanding out scratches and applying varathane.  Same with old rifles as you know.  With old fabric however (clothing, etc) it is sometimes acceptable to have it “cleaned” (carefully) to preserve the item and prevent the dirt, etc, from damaging the fibers.  It may be acceptable to clean the leather and apply something to soften it and preserve it.  On the other hand even suggesting such action might give a conservator a heart attack.

There was a fellow by the name of Al Saguto at the Colonial Williamsburg Society that might know.  I can’t recall what his exact title was but he was in charge of the section that dealt with original leather footwear and such.  I contacted him once to ask some questions about original gear, and he mentioned the old leather shoes and such from Fort Ligonier (don’t know if I spelled that right) they had worked with.  I don’t know him all that well, but he was a very pleasant person to deal with, and most knowledgeable.  A really nice guy.  He might be able to give you some advice on whether or not you should try and clean or preserve the bag, and if so – what to use and/or how to go about it.  I have his e-mail address if you want it.

[T.C.Albert]

David,
Not being able to see the bag in person, please dont take this as any gospel course of action, but here are my thoughts for what they are worth.

First off, if the pouch has any reddish color and is flaking off bits of the smooth surface, it may have red rot. You cant do  much for that sadly, and adding any oil or treatment may slow its demise, but nothing besides neutralization of the leathers over acidic ph can stop it, and I dont think the damage is reversable.
The leather has absorbed too much sulfur either when tanned or from the environment, and every time it absorbs humidity the sulfur makes weak acid and eats the fibers of the hide...or so I understand it.

Hoping thats not the case for your bag, you can add small amounts of a leather cream and see what happens. Dont use liquid oils unless very sparingly. Dried out old leather can sponge up oils with bad results. I have however had some good results with the patient application and reapplication of standard off the shelf mink oil, but weather that will last with out doing damage over the generations is perhaps questionable. A basic rule for conditioning leathers often referred to is "animal to animal"...implying that you can condition with salt free animal fat...like pure rendered tallow. I believe new leather was originally conditioned that way in the old days, so it may be a benificial way to restore a bit of softness now. I haven't much experience with modern chemical miracle rejuvinators, so cant recommend any. If you really want to, feeding the flap this way may give you the desired result, but the leather will always remain pretty fragile I think, and anything you do beyond stabilization cant be undone if it goes wrong.

Im sorry to say, but for truly old and valuable leather objects, stabilization and careful curation are best.
So display of original pouches involving hanging by the strap or excess handling is not really encouraged, at least in my humble opinion. For general storage, the pouch should be laid flat, kept out of the sunlight, and kept in a humidity controlled place, and never displayed where its allowed to be be over handled. To that end, I have recently seen original pouch sets displayed at shows in special long cases under glass, which is great for shows, but then again, maybe not the best for long term storage back at home?

I really believe a good set of photos, a careful set of measurements and detailed construction notes are a good idea in any case, and a carefully monitored hands off approach to displaying it at shows, with careful storage at home are the best course of action. I know that may sound harsh, but old pouches are pretty rare, especially provenanced unrestored, unbroken sets. 

Sorry theres no great quick fix answer, but I have given you my best thoughts on the matter, and how I would treat the bag if it were mine.
TCA   

[David Rase]

Guy, Art, TPH, Brian and TC,  Thanks for all the information you have shared with me.   Probably making sure I store the bag carefully with a hands off approach is what I will do.  I have it mounted to a board with plastic zip ties for display, which is only about 2 or 3 times a year and store it flat the rest of the time.  My biggest concern was rubbing it down with the wrong leather conditioner and making things worse.  My wife does a lot of leather preservation with her saddles and tack but I felt this was not a dry saddle that just needed reconstituted.  Thanks again for all the help.
DMR

[bigsky]

Before I would put anything on it, I would contact a local museum conservator to see what they would recommend.  You might also contact an antique book dealer or archivist to see what they put on leather-bound books to keep them conditioned.   You wouldn't want anything greasy on books or it would damage the paper.

[jim meili]

David, here is what I was advised to do on a pouch and a couple of War of 1812 pommel holsters I have. Most curators will tell you not to store it away in its dry condition. It is just going to go on its way to complete disintegration. Tough words but that's what will happen if the material is not stabilized.

I was told to gently dab the leather with a damp cloth or sponge, a little at a time until there is some moisture added back into the leather. This took a while and eventually the leather began to feel, even look as if it was getting stronger. The holsters were tempered leather so to over moisten them wouldn't be good either. However, they had been stored for years in a drawer so were so flat I couldn't get my fingers down in them. Eventually they opened enough that I got a packing material down in their to shape them out. After that process, about three weeks worth, I started to apply Peccards leather treatment. Peccards, the stuff in the little plastic tub not the oil, is what many museums use to give their leather goods a little nourishment. It appears greasy so put it on very sparingly about once a week for several weeks and then once a month thereafter. It drys and you can gently buff the leather to a sheen after a few treatments. Then just store your item like T.C. suggested. I use Peccards on my boots and dress shoes once in awhile before I repolish them.

Good luck
Jim

[TPH]

Jim, please don't take offense to this but Pecards is not a good thing to use on antique leather. True, they have an "antique" formula, but all of the Pecards products contain petroleum products - not good for leather of any kind. There are no museums that use Pecards, at least none that I am aware of. It is fine to use on your shoes and work boots and it will restore modern leather that has begun to dry out but please don't use it or any other leather creams that contains petroleum byproducts on antique, museum quality leather items. Carefully read the article I linked above, "Appendix S: Curatorial Care of Objects Made From Leather and Skin Products" to find the reasons for not using leather dressings. There is also mention made of avoiding even a light application of water.

Control humidity (40% - 60% RH) and avoid at all costs direct sunlight.

[JTR]

Pecards web-site says the stuff is based on a “vegetable grade lubricant similar to Vaseline with the addition of various natural waxes including bees wax.”
I’ve had good luck with the stuff. About 25 years ago I bought a civil war sword, and the leather frog was wrinkled and balled up like an old rag. After more than a few applications of the stuff I was able to reform the frog into its original shape.
I sold that sword a few years ago, but during the time I had it, there was no further deterioration of the leather what so ever.
During the past 4 years I’ve been using it on the leather seats of my old sporty car from time to time, with no negative results.
I guess maybe you could argue that in the long run something might happen,, but just how long is the long run?
Not to dis museums, but a lot of the things I’ve seen displayed are just rotting away or falling apart, so I wouldn’t necessarily hold their opinion in the highest regard. 
Personally I can't see Pecards doing any harm to you shooting bag.
John

[jim meili]

TPH, no offense taken, always open to opinions. I think you and I are talking about a different Pecards. Looked on the container and there are no petroleum products in  the stuff I have. Anyway I got the notion to use it from the veterans museum here in Madison. They have one of the finest Civil War collections in the country next to the Museum of the Confederacy. A fair portion of it is leather, saddles, holsters, rucksacks, boots and on and on. Pecards also makes a neatsfoot oil mixture that I wouldn't put even near anything I own.
The water part was something I did to soften the tempered leather so it could be reshaped. Most of the water in my area of the country has so much iron in it that it probably starts eating at the material as soon as it hits it. So I used distilled water.  But when the material is so dry there really is no other choice and it works. A friend of mine actually soaked a  pommel holster in water to bring it back. Got the shape back then retempered the leather and stabilized it. It looks now like it should and holds his contract 1842 Aston pistol nicely and was nothing but a crushed and cracked piece of junk when he found it. There are some success stories.

[TPH]

Pecards web-site says the stuff is based on a “vegetable grade lubricant similar to Vaseline with the addition of various natural waxes including bees wax.”
I’ve had good luck with the stuff. About 25 years ago I bought a civil war sword, and the leather frog was wrinkled and balled up like an old rag. After more than a few applications of the stuff I was able to reform the frog into its original shape.
I sold that sword a few years ago, but during the time I had it, there was no further deterioration of the leather what so ever.
During the past 4 years I’ve been using it on the leather seats of my old sporty car from time to time, with no negative results.
I guess maybe you could argue that in the long run something might happen,, but just how long is the long run?
Not to dis museums, but a lot of the things I’ve seen displayed are just rotting away or falling apart, so I wouldn’t necessarily hold their opinion in the highest regard. 
Personally I can't see Pecards doing any harm to you shooting bag.
John

JTR, your opinion is duly noted. What you say is similar to the act of taking an original longrifle by an unknown maker of the late 18th Century and "cleaning it up" with sandpaper and/or steel wool and applying Tru Oil finish to the wood, cold bluing the iron and buffing the brass to a high finish because that may be the way it originally looked. You know just as well as I that this would be the wrong way to go about preserving the rifle for study. It would be the equivalent of destroying the gun but there are many that feel that this would be the "right way" to do it so it would look good over the mantle.

Pecards is often touted as being "used by the Smithsonian" but where that comes from no one is able to say, it is the equivalent to urban legend. I have searched their site and no where do they make that claim, they do not say that any museums, even those run by small, out of the way local historical societies, use their product either though some of the lesser informed small museums may do it.

Now, I do have to say that I have respect for Pecards' products, they are better than any of the other modern goos for sale and used by almost everyone on user grade materials. Even I use it on my reenactment leather, second only to high grade PURE neatsfoot oil. After over 20 years of professionally making leather products for reenactors and collectors, I have yet to see it damage any relatively new made leather items, that includes car seats and work boots. But let me ask you this: Should it be used on a one of a kind historical object? I think not and here is why - the original, 200 year old item is already in a state that can not be rejuvenated to it's former self, no matter what we try to do. It needs to be preserved as it is and used for study. Photograph it, take measurements and note how it was constructed, make the attempt to find out what kind of leather it was made from, and most important, keep it in a stable environment. Then, make a reproduction for use or for general display. The petroleum products will, over time, cause deterioration of the object, especially your above stated over application. Less is better. The damage will happen over a long period of time - maybe not in your lifetime but the the item may already be old enough to remember the time when your great times 8 grandfather was a young man and could last for another 200 years or more if left alone, allowing further study and, who knows, maybe exact identification of the maker or at least the time and place where made.

[art riser]

amen