2018 era fantasy build - .50 Cal from a Chambers Haines kit...

[Kingsburyarms]

Thanks Mike - I will reach out to James and introduce myself! - BTW - I did chuckle at your comments on the French rifle - This isaac Haines will have a slight French feel to it, as I want to find my own way of carving, and I was reading an Alexandre Dumas book a few weeks ago (The Count..) and I thought a fleur-de-lis could be a nice "base" style to use... then you hit the nail on the head - all fun and games, and timely! -  I'll finish the patch box and post here, get some feedback and some fun ribbing, then we can see about that English rifle.. Merry Christmas,

Jon

[Elnathan]

Hi Jon,
Look at the Turvey rifle in Shumway's RCA 1.  In my opinion, Chambers English rifle kit is not closely based on that rifle and looks different.

The Turvey rifle has a great big breech that makes the D-weight barrel Chambers uses look pretty slim by comparison. I've come to the conclusion in the past couple years that, at least for those big early rifles, the breech width is a critical dimension and going too small makes it impossible to get the rest of the lines right. Unfortunately, barrels with breeches over 1.125 are pretty rare.

[n stephenson]

The Turvey rifle in RCA has always been one of my favorite guns period. The architecture is so nice , elegance combined with very little adornment. This piece exemplifies what Mike said about the cake versus the frosting. I don`t know how a person could improve this rifle. I sure would love to handle that rifle . I have "tried" to build it 3 times , and mine all handled very nicely. Nate

[n stephenson]

Hi Jon,
Look at the Turvey rifle in Shumway's RCA 1.  In my opinion, Chambers English rifle kit is not closely based on that rifle and looks different.

The Turvey rifle has a great big breech that makes the D-weight barrel Chambers uses look pretty slim by comparison. I've come to the conclusion in the past couple years that, at least for those big early rifles, the breech width is a critical dimension and going too small makes it impossible to get the rest of the lines right. Unfortunately, barrels with breeches over 1.125 are pretty rare.

Jon, You are right on about that big breech . One that I built was a Getz barrel that I found at Friendship in the flea market on a blanket brand new for $50 . It was 30 inches long .60 caliber , with a 1.250 breech . I wish I had a truck load of those. 

[smart dog]

Hi Jon,
Look at the Turvey rifle in Shumway's RCA 1.  In my opinion, Chambers English rifle kit is not closely based on that rifle and looks different.

The Turvey rifle has a great big breech that makes the D-weight barrel Chambers uses look pretty slim by comparison. I've come to the conclusion in the past couple years that, at least for those big early rifles, the breech width is a critical dimension and going too small makes it impossible to get the rest of the lines right. Unfortunately, barrels with breeches over 1.125 are pretty rare.

Hi,
You can do just fine with a barrel 1 1/8" at the breech and the right sized lock but a larger breech is nice.  The famous rifle for the Earl of Eglinton by Griffin and shown in Bailey's book on rifles is just slightly over 1 1/8" at the breech.  One problem is that most folks seem to always choose Chambers round faced English lock.  For English rifles, that lock is appropriate for guns before 1750 or so. Quite a few of those early English rifles were breech loaders with a screw plug attached to the trigger guard (not a through plug like the Ferguson). The majority of English rifles I've seen made after 1750 or so had flat lock plates.  That includes rifles built for military service. Another problem is that the vast majority of butt plates sold for English fowlers and rifles are severely straight like the one shown by Jon. I wish they had at least a slight crescent, which looks so much better.  Even the Turvey gun has a slight curve and it improves the architecture of the gun immensely and is as historically correct as the straight ones.  It is not always easy to give modern made butt plates that curve, particularly if they are cast steel.   

Jon, you are right that those English rifles are a delight to handle in the field.  I use mine for woods walks and have currently shot >540 rounds through it.  I love the gun.  Below is a link to the old thread in which I posted photos of the gun.  It is based more on the Griffin rifle than the Turvey and gives you an alternate example of styling.  It has a lot of drop because I made it to fit me like a glove.
  http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=41906.msg407816#msg407816

dave 

[Bigmon]

I had made a comment earlier but somehow it didn't get on here.
Basically,
I don't understand how you can move a swamped barrel forward or backward without having to remove wood , but mostly revealing a gap where the thinner part of the barrel dia now would be??

[smallpatch]

Big,
You're only moving the barrel an ⅛" or so. The changes in a swamped barrel in an eighth or quarter inch is negligible.

[Elnathan]

Hi Jon,
Look at the Turvey rifle in Shumway's RCA 1.  In my opinion, Chambers English rifle kit is not closely based on that rifle and looks different.

The Turvey rifle has a great big breech that makes the D-weight barrel Chambers uses look pretty slim by comparison. I've come to the conclusion in the past couple years that, at least for those big early rifles, the breech width is a critical dimension and going too small makes it impossible to get the rest of the lines right. Unfortunately, barrels with breeches over 1.125 are pretty rare.

Hi,
You can do just fine with a barrel 1 1/8" at the breech and the right sized lock but a larger breech is nice.  The famous rifle for the Earl of Eglinton by Griffin and shown in Bailey's book on rifles is just slightly over 1 1/8" at the breech. 

I wasn't talking about English rifles in general, but saying that if you are trying to make a close interpretation of an original rifle with a stout breech it is difficult to keep the lines of the original if you use a breech significantly smaller than the original. I figured this out when trying draw up the plans for a rifle built around a barrel with 1.080 breech instead of the original 1.20. Just wouldn't look right, particularly when I added 1/2" to the draw length....

[Kingsburyarms]

Let the floggings commence.....

[n stephenson]

Let the floggings commence.....

Jon, I like the design . Are you planning to put the back plate on the lid first?  If not you might get into your carving while working on the back plate. Just a question?

[Kingsburyarms]

Yes, I have a piece of Brass I have to file down (too thick) and I will align the box and put on the back plate so the small finger notch will be in front of the plate. I may keep a small arch between the finger notch and the plate - I have seen a few of those, and it looks clean.

Jon

[n stephenson]

Are you planning to angle the back plate slightly forward , instead of straight out?

[Mike Brooks]

With the lid in place file it flush with the butt plate. Then mount your brass back plate and put a piece of scrap brass in the front of the dovetail so the back plate sticks out the proper amount then file the brass back plate flush with the buttplate again. remove bit of scrap brass spacer from the dovetail and the fit of the back plate and buttplate will be perfect.
 So, you're going into "fantasy world" with this decoration? I'd be more impressed if you researched some "traditional" decoration" and executed it well. But it's your rifle and I'm sure you'll do a great job with it the way you're headed with it.

Personally I'd consider a Hains or dickert style of carving, but that's just me.....

[Kingsburyarms]

Thanks Mike - I will do that - I was wondering how to file the back plate because of the dovetail area of brass is thicker at the base than the edge of the but plate. and I wanted to taper it slightly forward to partially match the curve of the Brass but plate.

I wanted to try some carving and engraving that is different - some people tell me "Make the classics" and learn the style before you go make your own, and some tell me to carve and engrave what you want, and you will learn the skills, then study the originals, and you will be better at making them.

Cart - Horse.... Don't know, but as long as we have fun, learn, share and enjoy the final product, I guess it's all good.

Jon

[Kingsburyarms]

Got some shop time in yesterday, 1 piece Brass plate for the patch box, with a spring steel latch, I used "hidden" brass pins in the end plate, they go into the patch box about an inch.  cleaned up the drawing and started carving (very rough right now, basic shapes and size only) , I'll finish the patch box carving today, and start the stock design next -

[Carl Young]

Thanks for the photo update Jon. I think my Huguenot ancestor [who's grandfather landed at Jamestown, Virginia] who was with Morgan's Riflemen would appreciate the fleur-de-lys on a rifle. I hope you will post more photos as you progress. Your project is inspiring ideas for a "fantasy rifle" in my mind.

Carl

[Mike Brooks]

Uh Oh....my non traditional alarm is going off......

[Kingsburyarms]

Mike - you may need to give me a free pass on this one..... 

[rich pierce]

Mike - you may need to give me a free pass on this one..... 

Let’s make a deal.  So long as you don’t call it an Isaac Haines rifle you can do whatever you want and take no “style flak”. 

[Mike Brooks]

Mike - you may need to give me a free pass on this one..... 

Ok, one get out of fantasy jail free card......

[Kingsburyarms]

Post Title Changed.. -

[Mike Brooks]

Post Title Changed.. -

Maybe more better.....2018 era fantasy build. I'm not knocking you, just trying to help. You've gone far outside of Mr. Haines into "The Outer Limits".
 Ok, let's see what you're made of now, the sky is the limit, anything goes! (If you need any ideas let me know, there's a few things I have never had the courage to do)

(Please don't anybody get upset, I've PM'd Mr. Kningsbury numerous times and he knows I'm just pulling his leg.)

[smart dog]

Hi Jon,
This is a great thread and thank you for it.  Most of us do fantasy guns from time to time so you are in good company.  Mike's comments about making the patch box are bang on and I do those same procedures.  Jon, I will be heading to MA soon to examine a NE fowler in the Pocumtuck Valley Historical Society Museum in Deerfield.  I have been asked to build a copy and hopefully will have Rich Colten joining me. Rich was the historian for the Springfield Armory NHP and has surveyed many 17th and 18th century firearms made in NE. You are welcome to join us.  Send me a PM if interested. 

dave

[Kingsburyarms]

Dave - Just tell me when and where - I would love to meet with you -

[Kingsburyarms]

Post Title Changed.. -

Maybe more better.....2018 era fantasy build. I'm not knocking you, just trying to help. You've gone far outside of Mr. Haines into "The Outer Limits".
 Ok, let's see what you're made of now, the sky is the limit, anything goes! (If you need any ideas let me know, there's a few things I have never had the courage to do)

(Please don't anybody get upset, I've PM'd Mr. Kningsbury numerous times and he knows I'm just pulling his leg.)

Mike - you got it!!! - let's see what we can make reach the outer limits! - My deepest respects and yes - Mike and I banter back and forth (online and offline) as he is such a strong and talented builder and I'm a new school rookie - Please, no one should take any offense to Mike and his comments - they are truly from his heart and from his shop - We have the utmost respect for each other - and we have fun about actually getting Mike into the 19th century.. Next step  - Electricity