Author Topic: Ramrod channel  (Read 6348 times)

dmb25

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Ramrod channel
« on: October 22, 2017, 10:45:37 PM »
On my next rifle I'm building I think I am going to cheat and use my milling machine I think I have a good idea how to do it but was wondering if any one has any tips or tricks for doing so or common mistakes to avoid

Offline Bill Raby

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Re: Ramrod channel
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2017, 03:46:30 AM »
I use a milling machine for ramrod channels. Only trick I can think of to measure a lot.

Offline L. Akers

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Re: Ramrod channel
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2017, 04:47:42 PM »
I use a core box bit in my router.   Sounds simpler than setting up a mill to do the job.

Maineshops

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Re: Ramrod channel
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2017, 05:02:57 PM »
I’m in the process of using the mill for the ramrod groove. I inletted the barrel with the mill. Hade some good suggestions from the group that I well incarcerate befor I proceed. Dan

Offline P.W.Berkuta

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Re: Ramrod channel
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2017, 07:35:47 PM »
If you have a mill with enough travel and you can mount the stock in it then by all means use it. I have a mill but I prefer to use a router for this job.
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person who is doing it." - Chinese proverb

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Ramrod channel
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2017, 02:08:45 AM »
Sorry to be the fly in the ointment, but I think I can cut and finish a rod groove faster by hand than the time it would take me to set up a machine...much more fulfilling too, for me at least.



D. Taylor Sapergia
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Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Online rich pierce

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Re: Ramrod channel
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2017, 02:44:16 AM »
And do it with style!
Andover, Vermont

Offline SingleMalt

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Re: Ramrod channel
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2017, 02:52:48 AM »
Sorry to be the fly in the ointment, but I think I can cut and finish a rod groove faster by hand than the time it would take me to set up a machine...much more fulfilling too, for me at least.




I agree!  A couple of gouges, a specially modified round rasp and a sanding block are all you need.
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Ramrod channel
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2017, 03:08:39 AM »
Taylor makes everything look simple.   The Paul Sellers of longrifles!

Thanks for that.  It's encouraging for those of us who love challenges.  :o
Hold to the Wind

Offline Daryl

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Re: Ramrod channel
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2017, 05:32:45 AM »
Just make sure you go in the right direction when attempting to emulate what the wizard did.
Daryl

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Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Ramrod channel
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2017, 02:07:27 PM »
Looking at the big cut that Taylor took,  it is clear that I don't know how to properly sharpen my gouges.   I take much smaller bites.   I do use a gouge and a special plane that I made to cut the ramrod grove.  The only problem is that you need to cut the groove properly with the gouge in order for the plane to work right.   I have learned the hard way that the plane will not straighten out a crooked groove.   

Offline mikeyfirelock

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Re: Ramrod channel
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2017, 02:36:43 PM »
Just a small addendum.    I use a set of  old timey calipers to maintain the groove depth parallel to the barrel ( on a straight barrel of course).   I can then lessen the chance of drilling out the bottom of the stock, or into the barrel channel.   
Mike Mullins

Offline Long John

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Re: Ramrod channel
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2017, 04:40:52 PM »
I'm with Taylor on this.  I use a mallet and gouges to get the groove started and then finish it down to target depth with specially made pull-scrapers.  I like to work with my hands - why let a machine have all the fun?

Best Regards,

JMC
John Cholin

Offline Flint62Smoothie

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Re: Ramrod channel
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2017, 07:33:53 PM »
Semi-sort of off direct tooic, but what 'web' thickness between the bottom of the barrel inlet and the bottom of the ramrod groove are you trying to achieve?

In my specific ask, it would be for a French fowler FdC build ...
All of my muzzleloaders will shoot into one ragged hole ALL DAY LONG ... it's just the 2nd or 3rd & other shots that tend to open up my groups ... !

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Ramrod channel
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2017, 07:42:35 PM »
In all cases, as thin as you can get away with!

I have a piece of 3/8" drill rod with a turned up end (for a handle) and the tip sharpened with a burr (like a scraper) to finish the groove after removing wood with the gouge.
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Offline Flint62Smoothie

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Re: Ramrod channel
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2017, 08:01:28 PM »
In all cases, as thin as you can get away with!
Using Alex Efremenko's advice ... I removed as much excess wood from my FdC as I dared. Then put it aside for a week. Came back at it & removed some 'more', then put it aside again. On my 3rd attempt to remove "more", plus whilst using a borrow ramrod groove scraper, I have it 3/32" at the muzzle (wed thickness between barrel to ramrod groove) to about 1/8" or less on the upper forend, by the ramrod entry pipe. Plus I also scraped her ALL over to boot, for good measure.

She now weighs in at a svelt 7-pounds and a few ounces, for a 62-cal/20-gauge build using a French pieds measured barrel ~44" in length.

... good enough? This detail isn't depicted anywhere in Track's FdC plans, nor the Tulle requirements from the 172X contracts that is the basis for this build. Maybe I'm over-thinking it ... and am chasing a number ...

THANK YOU, by the way!
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 08:03:06 PM by Flint62Smoothie »
All of my muzzleloaders will shoot into one ragged hole ALL DAY LONG ... it's just the 2nd or 3rd & other shots that tend to open up my groups ... !

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Ramrod channel
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2017, 08:32:18 PM »
You do want to leave about 1/8" under the barrel at the breech for the front lock bolt.    That is,  unless you want to file into the barrel.  I usually start with 5/32" web thickness at the muzzle.   For a slimmer barrel, or straight barrel,  you can go down to 1/8".

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Ramrod channel
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2017, 08:40:28 PM »
I am with D.T.S.

It leaves me speechless when people talk about using a milling machine for a manual woodworking job.

Back in truly Ancient Times,  when Jack was chasing Marilyn, I was just as careless as I am now.
Read R.H. McCrory's book (Buchele's came later). Filed my own bit from drill rod, never hardened. Used a brace. Not very precise, but also have no recollections of the hole coming out bottom, side or barrel bedding. Just went slow, made more dust than chips. Oh yeah, cut ram rod groove with various chisels & maybe an offset round wood rasp.

If I could do it by hand surely anyone on this site can do better.
Milling machine? Save your money (and shop space) for a nice 1970's Vette.

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Ramrod channel
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2017, 08:50:23 PM »
I hate to admit it, but know it’s the truth, that every time you fire up a power tool, you increase the risk of making a custom rifle, that could be mistaken for a commercially produced one.
 Taylor does make it look way too easy. I have been cutting my ramrod groove with a router, but now see that using Taylor’s method, I could cut one while I would normally be rounding up the jig.

  Hungry Horse

Maineshops

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Re: Ramrod channel
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2017, 12:22:06 AM »
Oh the good old days of strong hands and good eyes. I commend you folks who can still do the work by hand. I used to do it also but I do contend that if those old boys had a mill I believe they would have used it? Keep up the good thoughts . Dan

dmb25

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Re: Ramrod channel
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2017, 07:09:07 AM »
I agree with you guys that u can never beat the traditional way I have done two guns  that way and both had a decent ramrod channel but at the same time I spent around a grand on a used Bridgeport so i need to justify the cost lol but I do feel it's important to do everything by hand at least s few times to get that sense of history from building a rifle

Offline P.W.Berkuta

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Re: Ramrod channel
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2017, 07:05:39 PM »
Oh the good old days of strong hands and good eyes. I commend you folks who can still do the work by hand. I used to do it also but I do contend that if those old boys had a mill I believe they would have used it? Keep up the good thoughts . Dan
I agree 100% - if the masters had the equipment then it only stands to reason that they would be using it. Technology marches on and so does the work force. It is nice to believe that all hand work is the best but that is just not so - if it were we would still be using a workforce based on guild shops to produce what we have today. I do not advocate the total use of power equipment for the building of one of these fine muzzle loading rifles BUT it does take the drudgery out of some of the building phase. Case in point - make a barrel with modern equipment or do it the way it was done in the 1700-1800.

I commend you that build a muzzle loading firearm with hand tools only - I also did this when I started as a teenager because I did not have anything else and I was building for me alone. Time was of no importance to me. Times change as we grow,  have a job that brings in money, get married & raise a family. Spare  time is precious and does not always present itself SO - I will get off my "soap box" by finishing with this - "Smoke um if you got um" ;D ;D.   
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person who is doing it." - Chinese proverb

Offline Scota4570

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Re: Ramrod channel
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2017, 07:24:15 PM »
That is an impressive cut.  My luck would have it tearing out in the corners, especially with fancy wood. 

I would do the job in my mill.  Use an undersized, new, ball end mill.  Use a milling table vice.  Leave the stock parallel between the top and bottom edges and leave it square.  Then it is only am matter of marking the depth wheel on where I need to stop.  The in and out out axis would be locked down.  I might take a 6" cut and move the stock and repeat.  Once I made the whole thing to depth I would perfect the sides.  Finally a little sandpaper on a dowel.  Yes, I am slow and methodical.   

dmb25

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Re: Ramrod channel
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2017, 07:11:52 AM »
So I have started using a ball endmill I actually being I am using a straight barrel using that as my reference surfece I edged found off my vice then moved in 1/2 mu barrel thickness and the clamped on the barrel and resting it on parrels and being that my mill is in tram the channel should be in parrelel and square to the  barrel bet took meny mesurments as I went






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Offline deepcreekdale

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Re: Ramrod channel
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2017, 04:56:40 PM »
I am in the camp that prefers to do them by hand, at least within reason (I rough out the stock blank with a bandsaw as the local apprentices are all on their computers these days.) I think it looks better and is more satisfying. I have done enough ramrod channels by now that it is less than an hour or two job.  Gouges, a round rasp with the tang bent up out of the way and a round scraper are all that are needed. I don't criticize anyone that prefers to use power equipment if they are skilled in their use and can set them up without taking forever. As far as the argument the old timers would have used power tools if they had them, well, they would have used composite stocks, stainless barrels that loaded from the breech if they had them too. They and we are building specific items that were built a specific way at a specific time. In many ways they had more and better hand tools than we do and most were well trained in their use so they likely worked much faster than we do. I feel if too many power tools are used it detracts from the looks of the gun. If you handle originals, you can tell they are hand made, just like when you handle a contemporary piece you can tell if power tools were overused. However, I do understand  P W Perkuta's point about time. I am fortunate, my kids are gone, my wife doesn't make time demands on me, I live in the country so I have a lot of time. Others may not yet be or choose to be at that point in their lives. Plus, some people just like to tinker with and solve problems using machinery, I get that, it just isn't what works for me.
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