Engraving question

[rich pierce]

Here’s s nice, uncomplicated engraving of an English lock. Question for you engravers:  are the double lines cut with a liner or singly with a square graver?

[deepcreekdale]

Based on the intersection of the lines at the tail of the lock, I would say a double line engraver. I am interested in what other think however. Experience engravers, like those that would have worked on English locks would have been well versed in their use. I think most colonial engravers that had a more limited array of gravers would have cut two lines individually. I have a friend that is a professional gun engraver, he uses a double line engraver all the time, just sharpening them and getting the heel correct on both tips, is more than I can handle. Fun question though.

[Jim Kibler]

No question....  Done with a single point graver.  Cut the first and deepest line.  Use a pair of dividers to mark the second by tracing the first one cut.  Cut the second.  Not too difficult with practice.

Jim

[Bigmon]

I just marvel at how these older guns have the look, that at least for me, is impossible to achieve.
That being said, look at wher the trigger is in the gaurd?  Way to the forward.
It probably still works that way, but sure looks odd??

[jerrywh]

  In the first place line engravers or liners do not have a heal on them. It is very simple for a professional engraver to cut double lines like that. No need for any special graver. I just mark it with a set of dividers ane cut it with a square graver. 

[Ed Wenger]

If I were to cut these lines, I'd do exactly as Jim described.  However, I think Dale brings up a good point about the lines intersecting at the tail.  Top lines do the same thing near the cock.  Also, there's a place where both lines are very light near the tail.  I think it strange that they're both that way.  There's also some places where the lines wave ever so slightly, but are still parallel.  I too would be interested in what others think.

Good point, Jerry.

              Ed

[smart dog]

Hi,
I suspect that he may have used some sort of double-line graver to cut shallow lines and then went back to deepen them with a single point graver. Cutting deep lines with a liner in steel would take a lot of force unless he made the cuts by gradually deepening them.

dave

[jerrywh]

 That is a English lock. Locks from England were engraved by professional engravers who belonged to a guild. That is very simple for a professional engraver to do with a single point graver. I'm not sure they even had liners back then. Liners are basically used by Jewelry engravers on silver. 

[Ky-Flinter]

Hi,
I suspect that he may have used some sort of double-line graver to cut shallow lines and then went back to deepen them with a single point graver. Cutting deep lines with a liner in steel would take a lot of force unless he made the cuts by gradually deepening them.

dave

As an apprentice, struggling to learn how to engrave, how the heck do you keep the graver in the original line while trying to deepen the cut.  I always manage to run out and end up with a new line where I don't want one.

-Ron

[smylee grouch]

Jerry mentions that the liners didn't have a heel ground on them, would there be enough steel on the tips of those liners to grind a heel on them or not?

[rich pierce]

The one I have is gently curved.

[jerrywh]

Jerry mentions that the liners didn't have a heel ground on them, would there be enough steel on the tips of those liners to grind a heel on them or not?

  If you put a heal on a liner there won't be any lines left on the liner.   Liners never have a heal. They also have a curved belly.  There are two types of liners. One type is a curved liner. The curved liner acts like a liner with a heel because of the curved belly. You would have to see and use one to understand how they work.  The belly on the curved liners are curved in both directions. Nobody makes a liner with two lines. A person would have to make one.


 https://www.grs.com/product/002-699-curved-line-gravers-24-10/

[Jim Kibler]

I've heard people suggest that these double lines were created using a double line cutter before, but if you become a decent engraver, you'll find that it's not too difficulat at all and there wouldn't be any need to use anything more complicated.  A double line cutter would be complicated to make and difficult or impossible to set up with a heal.  Not likely at all in my view.

[rich pierce]

I agree with all the reasoning, but there's still the crossed lines to be explained at the lock tail.  An engraver good enough to produce parallel lines including the little wiggles and parallel shallow cut areas and parallel deeper cut areas could easily finish up better at the lock tail.  Instead we have double lines crossing.  Leave aside the historical reasoning and modern engravers' experiences, and Occam's razor suggests a different cut.


Which led me to an experiment.  I took a piece of O1, filed it to a double liner curved profile, hardened, tempered, sharpened it, and used it.  It cuts 2 parallel lines.

Does that mean this technique was used in this example, or even ever?  No.

[Ky-Flinter]

Perhaps crossed lines in the corners were the style of the time?

-Ron

[kutter]

I'd say a double line cutter. Pretty common tool at one time.
I've got a few still around that I use in restoration when the need arises. Some of the old US shotgun mfg engraving patterns incorporated it in their borders so I still use them once in a while.
Just sharpen the face,,no heal as stated already. Takes a little getting used to at first so you don't dig in with those 2 sharp points, But with a little practice and finesse it goes right along.

[James Rogers]

Rich I have seen a bunch of English locks that to me showed traits (like the crossovers at the tail of your example) of the use of some type of double cutter.  All kinds of expedient tricks were used in the various craft "companies".

[Mike Brooks]

Belgian engraving appears to have been shaded with a multi line graver. (percussion period) It seems I have seen this on some latish KY rifles as well.

[jerrywh]

 In the American Firearms Engravers Guild when you take the test for master engraver one of the requirements is to cut long parallel lines  If you can't cut them you don't pass.  Just thought I would mention that.

[rich pierce]

In the American Firearms Engravers Guild when you take the test for master engraver one of the requirements is to cut long parallel lines  If you can't cut them you don't pass.  Just thought I would mention that.

Jerry, pretty sure nobody is questioning whether a competent engraver can cut long parallel lines.  That's a given.  Carefully studying this particular example of engraving shows the following:

1) Parallel irregularities.  When one of the lines is shallow, the other is shallow. When one is off-line and has a little jog, the other has an identical jog.    An engraver skilled enough to perfectly mirror every difference in depth and lack of adherence to the intended line would perhaps not make the irregularities in the first line.

2) Crossing of double lines at the tail.  Same logic.  The engraver was so attentive using a single engraver that each irregularity in one line was reproduced in the parallel line, but not at all careful in their terminations?

That a double lined engraver may have been used in this particular instance- no other implied- does not in any way suggest that such a practice is good, common, or preferred.  I just enjoy interpreting what is visible on this particular lock.

We've overcome the "they couldn't have done it using a 2 line graver" argument, so it is an open question.  Could have been a single graver, could have been a 2 line graver.

[smylee grouch]

Good point Rich, reinforces my opinion that we should never say never or always when we are talking about such matters.

[jerrywh]

 Maybe you should make a double line graver and try it.

[rich pierce]

I did, as posted above, and it works in the hands of a rank amateur (me, both rank and amateur), about as well as one could expect with a quickly crafted, O1 steel graver on the first try.  I made 2 gravers; one with close parallel lines and another more widely spaced.
























animated gif hosting

[James Rogers]

Rich, that looks very similar to what I have seen numerous times on production English work. Nice experiment.

[n stephenson]

L  I  B  !!!   Never say Never!! OK Rich , when will you have the first ones for sale?