A Question of groups

[SuperSpec]

Hello All,

Before I start this thread I want to preface that I am an intermediate black powder shooter with a few traditional guns (no inlines) to my name. Most are of decent accuracy but could use more range time and one is a real slayer (Traditions Crockett .32 caliber). "

Here is my quesiton

I have recently been shooting a Tennessee Valley Muzzleloading flintlock in 58 cal. Right out of the box after I swabbed the bore clean of oil I starting shooting nearly same hole groups at 25 yards and had 2 fantastic 5 shot groups (all from sandbags). My load was
100 grains 2F GOEX
.18 pillow ticking
.570 round ball

They next day I went out to the range and started shooting and noticed that my groups were starting to open up.. I am careful to replicate my loads and be consistent with loading procedures and final cleaning sessions (all to the best of my abilities and knowledge of course) at home so I can keep everything as uniform as possible.

I went out on the 3rd day and my groups were getting even more unpredictable and large. I haven't changed a thing with my loads. I am wondering if you guys had any suggestions on what I could be doing wrong? Do the barrel characteristics change a little bit when you start shooting and I need to find a different patch ball combo?
 I am just curious because I have had this exact same problem before with a different barrel on a Lyman Great Plains Hunter gun so I am positive the problem lies with me somewhere and I am by no means implying its the manufacturing of the barrel. It shot amazing at first and with every passing session my groups are getting worse, so I am assuming it's my flaw of cleaning, swabbing, or technique somewhere down the line.
Any questions or suggestions are valid, everyone. I am very humble and do not take offense to any question.

Thanks

SuperSpec

[OldMtnMan]

That's a tough one since it happened to more than one gun. Do you think you might have been more relaxed at first with the gun and not expecting much. After you know it's really accurate you put pressure on yourself to repeat it. You might be tightening up.

Try to relax and not think about score. Just think about the basics. Breathing, trigger control etc.

[smylee grouch]

Different day with a change of light conditions, a change of where you place your gun on the bags or hold your non shooting hand or who knows what. Set up for 50 yds. and start shooting groups there and forget the 25 yd. stuff for now. Keep track of every combo and target if you can so you can compare latter. Only change one item in your load combo at a time.

[Daryl]

Different day with a change of light conditions, a change of where you place your gun on the bags or hold your non shooting hand or who knows what. Set up for 50 yds. and start shooting groups there and forget the 25 yd. stuff for now. Keep track of every combo and target if you can so you can compare latter. Only change one item in your load combo at a time.

Good stuff here, from both guys!
best wishes

[oldtravler61]

 Humidity,temperature,wind and trigger pull. Seems to me the most common problems. Once you know you have an accurate load....Did I forget excitement... Your mileage may vary...Oldtravler

[walks with gun]

  I don't like to just use up one spot on a target, as long as I took the time to hang one up there,  I'm going to use up the whole thing.

[smylee grouch]

I don't like to use up a target for only one group too so I like to use the NMLRA's 6 bull targets at 50 yds. once I'm on paper. I can get 6 different load combo's on that target to compare later. I am part Scotch. 

[Don Steele]

SuperSpec,
When your groups "opened up"....what does that mean ??
How big did they get ??
When trying to diagnose this kind of thing, it helps to know if the "opening up" was going from one tight hole...to a "ragged hole", or if they went from one tight hole to 3".

Shooting from a rest offers challenges of it's own. Over time, I have consistently found that my groups tighten the more I do it with a given rifle and load combination which tells me that there are "technique points" in play even with a 2-point rest that aren't immediately obvious.
I'm also agreeing that shooting groups at 25 yds to evaluate changes in any part of your load combination doesn't often tell you much with these rifles. It's a great place to start..we all love to see that "one hole" performance, but to fine tune a load and see real differences you will need a little more distance for them to show up. 
On a somewhat lighter note, I have to admit that if I fired 10 rounds of 58 cal. balls over 100 gns of powder then went back the next day for more such fun...I expect my groups would be opening up too. OUCH.

[okawbow]

If you eliminate the human element; the things I would look at are: blown patches and or fouling build up, due to lube problems.

I personally haven't had much luck with pillow ticking lately. It's not the same as it once was. Could even have polyester in it. Try to find some old denim jeans the right thickness and see if it makes a difference.

Try a different lube. I have found a ballitol and water mix to be very consistent from group to group.

I would also give the barrel a good cleaning, including a wire brush. Just be careful and use a quality brush that won't break off in the bore.

[hudson]

I agree with okawbow totally check those patches. Burnt through patches can lead to lead and powder fouling, been there don that.

[Daryl]

Just about 50% of your accuracy from a bench, is from proper bench technique.

Watching people shooting from benches at a range is a most enlightening adventure.

Looking at their targets through a spotting scope for comparison, makes for a good

cross-reference to their bench technique. Mind you, a lot of people only shoot 2 or 3 rounds

to "make sure the sights are honest" before going hunting. 

When shooting ML's from the bench, technique and form are very important, less so perhaps

than when shooting a modern gun- but maybe not. If you don't sit correctly, you will not make

small groups.  One need only do some research - check out some stool shooters - BR shooters that is

and see how they sit, how they breath and how long they look through their sights before touching off a shot.

[longcruise]

Maybe as you have been shooting the barrel and breech area are settling into the inletting and getting a bit loose?  Just a WAG.

[kudu]

I know a couple of really good bench shooters- I would also agree your part of the game is consistency, consistency ,consistency.  What I mean is you must (as humanly possible) have the same site picture. the same forces on the gun, meaning the pressures of your cheek on the stock your placement of the front rest your trigger hand placement- your finger pulling straight back evenly. The tightness of the gun butt to your shoulder to intercept the recoil.

I believe that a consistent sight picture is the hardest, the light varies the mirage, and heat waves.

All this is added  to and goes along, with your load and ball scrutiny (weighing and sorting )
not to mention the overall quality of your gun expressly the bore.

Is it all worth it ?  It depends one what your trying to win.


     

[smylee grouch]

Bench rest shooting is an exacting game with the consistency needed to compete. Shooting good groups is load development and bench shooting together. Even tiny things like placing your target higher or lower can throw you off when the difference from one point to the next higher or lower is a quarter inch. Can be frustrating and challenging.

[Molly]

My hubby shoots a 58 cal.   But 100 gr at 25 yards!  I thing I would load down a bit.   He shoots about 60 gr and it still smack him pretty hard.  He says it's hard to be accurate with a sore shoulder.  I shot it once but never again.

[Marcruger]

One thing I would add is that bench shooting with a blackpowder firearm is way different than bench technique for a modern gun. 

For a muzzleloader I lay my hand on the front rest, and grip the forend tight.  I nestle my trigger opposite elbow into a bag.  No part of the gun touches anything but me.

My thinking is that balls leave a blackpowder gun so slow that the gun has a chance to whip and jump if it is on a rest.  You get dispersion and poor groups.  Shooting it the way I described is akin to shooting offhand, but very steady and under control. 

This resting the gun in your hand also better replicates an offhand shot, so sight adjustments are true. 

If you aren't shooting this way from the bench, give it a try.  It works for me. 

Yep, definitely shoot at 50 yards to sight in.  Even a smoothbore will shoot at 25 yards. 

Last, make sure your target is highly visible.  I make my own out of poster paper.  Large black triangle taped to dayglo poster board.   That way I can see and know if it is me or the  load.  Best wishes, and God Bless,   Marc




upload multiple image

[Darkhorse]

I think bench shooting a muzzleloader is no different than a centerfire. It's all about your setup, your form and your personal shooting skill. I always use a front rest with a hand towel under the barrel and the rest behind the RR entry pipe. I have one or two fingers holding the side of the barrel. I want the gun to free recoil, if it contacts the RR that restricts the free recoil. The butt is always on a bag. After I sight in my rifles are always on target no matter if shooting offhand or leaning against a tree.
This target was shot off the bench in the forementioned manner. What works for me might not work for others.

[SuperSpec]

Wow guys! Thanks for all of the really great responses!

I've always prided myself to be a steady shooter with lots of experience with monster calibers that kick much harder (7 dram in a Forsythe style 12 bore) than this gun HOWEVER sometimes you have to just admit when you're flinching hard. I bought a Primos Group Therapy sled instead of just sandbags to shoot off. My groups tightened up to clovers instantly. I guess I am flinching on the flinter to much. I need to learn to beat that lock. I am 100% new to flint lock and that flash in your face is something you have to learn to get through.

I am guessing I was shooting good at first because I did not know what to expect form the flint lock ignition but as I got more aware of it I inadvertently started to flinch more and my groups got destroyed.

glad its me and not my gun! I just need to practice practice practice

There is a lot of really great wisdom in this forum. Pretty much everyone pointed to technique.

Thanks for all of the sage advice everyone!!!

PS I was given a book called "MUZZLE LOADING" by Don Davis. Very Very helpful. I've been shooting muzzleloaders for a while but I sort of taught myself and this book fixed a lot of errors in my initial shooting of a MZ that I had no idea I was making and it made things a lot smoother.

[OldMtnMan]

Really good to see you open to advice. You'll do well. Just keep working on it.

With a flintlock I like to concentrate even harder on the front sight. It's what I always concentrate on, but with a flintlock I almost go into a trance. It takes my mind completely off the explosion going off in front of my face and before I know it the shot is over with. Most of the time i'm not even aware of the the flash or any delay in ignition. Just burn that front sight into the target. Whether paper or flesh.

[hanshi]

I shoot off the bench as Marcruger describes.  Using sandbags and such like I do with modern rifles always gave me inconsistent results.  Now I know that my lousy groups are due to me not shooting worth a flip.

[smylee grouch]

Most serious ML bench rest shooters rest the barrel on the bench out toward the muzzle, some even have cant bars on the barrel to stop them from canting and they rest the cant bar on the bench. If you are shooting bench to sight in a hunting rifle I would think you should rest the barrel in your hand which is supported by the bench or sand bags.

[Daryl]

Most serious ML bench rest shooters rest the barrel on the bench out toward the muzzle, some even have cant bars on the barrel to stop them from canting and they rest the cant bar on the bench. If you are shooting bench to sight in a hunting rifle I would think you should rest the barrel in your hand which is supported by the bench or sand bags.

ALL of my rifles that will be shot offhand are held as Marc noted below.
"For a muzzleloader I lay my hand on the front rest, and grip the forend tight.  I nestle my trigger opposite elbow into a bag.  No part of the gun touches anything but me."

When I shoot this way, the point of impact is identical to when I shoot offhand.  If I merely rest the forend on the bag, the group will form slightly higher than the normal poi.  If you sight in resting the forend on a bag or something hard, you will shoot low when shooting offhand at that range.  This is what I've found, with my rifles. Some guns shoot closer together with varying techniques than others - you have to actually shoot your guns to find out what they do & with what load they need to shoot well enough to satisfy your demands.

We've all seen ML shooting with the stock or under rib close to the muzzle resting on a plank, board or bag.  By all means, try it- that is simply one of the tests you must do for 'stool, plank or chunk shooting'.  Every gun I have shot this way, preferred to be rested at the entry pipe, not out on the barrel or forend.  Each gun is unto itself. 

Find out what SHE wants.

[OldMtnMan]

Not quite sure why you're all talking about the rest when he thinks the problem is flintlock flinch?

[Marcruger]

One thing I would be cautious of......sleds. 

Rifles and guns are designed to recoil back with your body.  Your shoulder absorbs the recoil force as it moves to the rear, with lots of physics involved.  Now that you know the gun is not the issue, I'd sideline the sled. 

When using a sled, the gun is not able to move to the rear in the usual way.  A lot of the recoil energy is absorbed by the stock.  I don't know about you, but I cherish my guns since I am not rich. 

I watched a hunter try to sight in a hard kicking magnum with a sled.  He added lots of lead to the sled so he wouldn't feel recoil.  The beautiful stock of the Model 70 shattered through the wrist.  With slender longrifles I'd be even more careful.  If the rifle cannot move to the rear freely, something has to give. 

My friend Dave once said, "There's no future in being pounded".  I subscribe to that theory too.  Since squirrels don't make dangerous charges, I don't need heavy kicking elephant guns.  ;-)   Your mileage may vary. 

Hope this helps in some way.  God Bless,   Marc

[Marcruger]

BTW, that is a fine looking group Darkhorse.  One to be proud of. 

On my target I posted I wasn't attempting to brag, just show a handmade target for an example.  That one was me trying to see what a Green Mountain .50 would do at 100yards with a couple of different loads.  The real limitation is my eyesight!   ;-)  God Bless,  Marc