Mistakes "Learning experiences"

[n stephenson]

I think it would be safe to say that we all long to build the perfect rifle . The one where everything just falls into place without one problem . I haven't found that one yet!! I notice that some new builders seem kind of embarrassed to ask for help on their problem. I think it is important for them to know that the reason  the forum members are so good at helping with their dilemma is because we have made the same , or similar , or worse mistakes ourselves. I can`t speak for anyone else but I have made the same mistake sometimes a few times , until I got some help from someone getting better results. This forum is definitely the best source of information on this subject PERIOD!! It would be very interesting to know the total years of experience the forum members have collectively , it would be mind blowing . That is a lot of success , and probably quite a few "learning experiences" along the way . I continually pick up tips and tricks on here , and find  it very comforting to know  that should I find myself in a pickle , I know someone on here  will have some solutions . Even if it`s Mike Brooks telling me to throw it in the garbage and do it right the next time.       Nate

[Maineshops]

My motto....Do it, Try it, Fix it. And we n can with all the expertise in this group.

[Marcruger]

My motto is "Ask every expert I can find.  Avoid the School of Hard Knocks".   :-D   God bless,   Marc

[Joe S.]

I was always a don't ask for help,what could possibly happen,wait till it blows up in your face kind of guy.A few things will change this.Your pride isn't what it used to be,you spent good money for it and don't want it screwed up and you get tired of doing things over and over.

[Mr. Bubbles]

This is my first post on this forum, but I've been lurking here for some time.  I have been active on the other ML'er building forum however for quite a bit longer.

I think what you're saying has a good deal of merit and needs to be examined.  The fundamental question is; WHY are you building?  If your answer to that is; "to have a finished gun" then that's what you'll get, and, it's ALL you'll get.  If your answer is; "to have a PERFECT gun" then you probably come closer. 

Within a build there are a zillion little projects within it; wood selection, barrel inletting, RR hole drilling, tang shaping and inletting, lock location and inletting etc.  The list is very long.  The British fine gun makers (Boss, Purdey, Holland & Holland etc) make their guns the same way we do, by hand, and 1 at a time.  They say it takes them between 800-1200 skilled man hours to build one of their guns, and it doesn't go out the door until it's READY to go out the door.

When I show my interim building pictures to my non-building friends, they always say the same thing; "cool, let me know when it's done."  I was in that camp myself for the first couple of them.  What I got done were pretty atrocious now that I look back at them, but I was quite proud of then at the time.  At that time, I built the guns because I wanted the guns. 

Now I build for the same reason, but my standards have changed.  I don't want the gun unless it's the perfect gun.  The result is that each step takes me about 3x as long as it did on the first few, but I also work about 3x faster, and about 3x more precisely.  That's how unskilled labor turns in to skilled labor.

So as to the OP's point, if you're not willing to make mistakes, then you're not ready to try something.  If you're not willing to accept criticism, or admit to them, then you're not ready to learn and improve.  And it's only by the aforementioned that we actually do.

[Jim Kibler]

Most things I do are trial and error.  Do something, look at it and if it's not what you want, use reason and problem solving to modify your approach.   I believe this is how we really learn and become better with work such as this.

You must be able to carefully evaluate your work and not be content with mediocrity, though.

[Justin]

I'm a complete newbie and stumbled on this forum via web searches.

I have an old neighbor back in my home town that I always looked up to. He taught me a lot about fly fishing and taught me how to tie my first proper fly with proper technique. The same guy also hunted with a flintlock and I only learned he built them later after I moved far away. Now years later I wanted to get more into deer hunting but I am not so keen on being in a forest full of folks with high powered rifles shooting at whatever they see so I figured I'd go the muzzleloader route -- and then why not a Flintlock?

So that is what got me thinking of the build but I also am enjoying the process of it -- it's a project that if I take my time on it and follow the advice of my old neighbor and other folks like you all, I'll hopefully have a very nice rifle in the end. After that I fully intend to keep building more rifles -- hopefully one each winter so I can spend my time building something that will last.

I'm hoping to avoid the big expensive mistakes but I know I've already made a couple of small ones on my current build. Though I feel like I'm probably more critical of my own work than I should be... We'll see how that goes as I continue the build 

[Mike Brooks]

I have only had to start over twice.

[smallpatch]

Cut to suit, pound to fit, paint to match!

[SingleMalt]

If I had a nickel for every mistake that I've made on a rifle, I wouldn't have to work!  It's a good thing I learn better by doing.

[jerrywh]

 I wish I had some body to ask when I started out but their was nobody out here in Oregon in the 50's or 60's. My first rifle never had a cheek piece or any moldings because I never saw a photo of the left side before. The only photos I saw was the right side in magazines. It took me a couple of years to find out how to temper springs.  I could not find a photo of the inside of a flint lock. The closest thing I could find was a hammer shotgun lock I knew they would have to be similar. So on and on I went for a lot of years learning everything the hard way. That is why I try to help new guys.

[Black Hand]

Being an accomplished builder is more about knowing how to fix your mistakes...

[Chowmi]

I have been both reluctant, and often willing to ask for help.  My mindset has always been to try to figure it out myself, or find an answer in a book, video, or on this website.

I think that the first step ought to be to try to figure it out yourself, or do some research to see if there is a solution that will fit your problem.  I say this because I think that you will learn more from solving the problem yourself or adapting a similar solution to your own problem. 
I don't mean to discourage or knock on those who ask for help, in any way.  That is what this forum is all about. 

I have learned more from my mistakes than my successes.  I generally think that when I do something right in gun building, it is luck, and screwing up is my general tendency. 

Two years ago at the gunbuilding seminar at WKU I told Jack Brooks all the problems I had with my first build (there were a lot!).  He said "I'm surprised you kept going!"  The point being that as Nate said, everyone has been there.  It can be quite intimidating looking through the pictures of builds in progress, or completed builds by good gunsmiths, and then looking at your own build.  I think that is why some might be reluctant to ask questions.  The standard of build on this forum is quite high.  Intimidating for a newbie. 

Every book and video I have on gun building tells you how to do it right.  The author or presenter on the video then shows you how it's done right and it all goes amazingly well.  Problem, is that even after watching, reading, studying etc., a new guy's skills just simply won't "do it right the first time".  The resources rarely tell you how to fix problems because the authors/presenters have the skills to prevent those big errors. 
I have often thought that this was a gap in the teaching material that we have available to us.  I've considered doing an "follow and idiot in gun building" video showing all the errors, bad techniques etc. that I often employ.  Then show my fixes, and also allow comment from the experienced builders on this site.  I think that critical analysis of poor technique, with a follow-up of corrective action shown on a video would be amazing. 

I will reiterate that this site has been a gold mine for me in gun building, and I would encourage anyone here to post questions, without fear. 

Cheers,
Norm

[ltdann]

Hey chow, I'd buy that DVD 😉.   A DVD of common mistakes and a variety of fixes would be awesome!

[black ed]

it's a challenge when you identify it, a learning experience when you fix it and a mistake when you can't fix it.

[elkhorne]

Norm,
I love what you said in your fifth sentence! I was in a class a couple of years ago that featured Jim Turpin and he was an excellent instructor. He has done a number of very good and practical videos and I told him, it would be great help for all builders if he would do a video on "Problem Solving." You give this a void in available videos a new angle and that is one that actually shows a mess up and then the instructor would show how to fix the problem. There are several accomplished builders that could do a great series of videos on your angle and it would help novices learn how to fix their errors and even apply the techniques to other errors that we all get ourselves caught up in from time to time. Videos like this could actually help new builders learn a skill in gun building problem solving that would benefit them across the spectrum of problems we cause or encounter in our learning how to build longrifles. Again, Great Idea Norm! This needs to get to Jim Turpin or Peter Alexander or Jim Kibler if they could find the time to get a video series started. I could see an entire set of videos that could begin with the most common mistakes and go to more specialized ones. Thanks!
elkhorne

[Jeff Stewart]

Making mistakes is definitely a "learning experience."  Based upon the evidence, I must be a lifelong learner!  Bill Shipman once told me that the difference between a hack and gun builder is knowing how to fix your mistakes.  (Don't tell anyone, but I am still a hack)

The best advice I ever got on gun building was from Mitch Yates, who told me to take some of the numerous classes offered by the great organizations out there.  I think many newbies hesitate to do so because they think it is too expensive.  You need to think of those classes as an investment; costs $ up front but the dividends will be worth many times the original investment.  Taking these classes is like a masters degree in problem solving.  When you get a group of 10-12 newbies together and start building, the mistakes will start to pile up.  That's when the instructors really shine, stepping up and explaining how to fix these common problems.  You get 10 builds worth of experience crammed into one week.

On the other hand, now when Jim Chambers, Jim Turpin, or Ed Wenger se me coming they turn around and run the other way!  Usually muttering something about the worst student they have ever had.

[thecapgunkid]

the gun housing a mistake in every operation is the one that tickles me the most.  Weighs six pounds, 28 Ga smoothie that groups in two inches at 25 yards.  Go figure.




Every other piece I have made benefited from this and the forum.

Thanks, folks

The Capgun Kid

[Nordnecker]

I made a mistake yesterday and didn't even realize it until after I came back from lunch. But it was SO obvious to me then. I mean, I've only been studying photos and full size drawings for a month and a half. But this detail just plumb evaded me. I wouldn't mind it so much if it were going to be hidden, but it will be totally evident no matter how I try to "fix" it. So, it's back to the lumber pile, saw out new pieces, plane 'em down, glue 'em together, let them dry, and try to fit them without making the same mistake, (or a different one). And if I'm lucky enough to do all that, maybe in 48 hrs I'll be where I was yesterday morning before I screwed up. It's a good thing I enjoy the building process.

[oldtravler61]

  Actually I plan the mistakes ahead of time...!  I open the door to my shop mistake # 1 then proceed on to other's.....no problem....Oldtravler