Inletting the tang

[Justin]

I posted this in a Facebook group as well and got some thoughts there but I'm curious what folks here think as well.

I just cut my tang to shape (should have cut the design a little deeper because as-is it's barely noticeable but too late now...) and inlet it. After I was almost done with inletting it, I wasn't happy with the amount of contact I was getting between metal and stock.

Here are some images showing what I've done.

This shows the amount of contact I am getting with the tang and inlet. You can see the pink area (which I drew on the computer) doesn't have any black.


This is the side profile. I bent it down as close to the bolster (the block under the tang) as I could but I still have a decent hump there (maybe 1/16"):


Top view looks okay but I wish I cut that edge deeper at the start of that curve... it's barely noticeable but oh well:


I think I have good contact with the butt of the barrel against the stock:


And a side-view of the tang. Some folks are suggesting I file that rounded part square so I can bend the tang a bit closer to the bolster. I am planning to do this but thought I'd check for advice here too:



What do you think? Should I take the time to get better contact here on the tang?

PS: You may notice at the butt end of the barrel channel I cut out a little too deep so my wood/barrel contact there is not very good. I am going to fill that with acraglas (gel) later on.

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I have had this happen before and will be interested to hear what suggestions folks have. 

As for the gap, glue wood in there if you can.  If a gap is large enough the gel idea will look bad.  Anything you can get a piece of wood in there it is the way to go.

Also, you have black showing that the back of the lug itself is touching.  You want good contact and the breech, which you have, but not at the back of the lug.  Many builders recommend a little bit of a gap back there for recoil. 

Cory Joe Stewart

[smylee grouch]

Your tang looks plenty thick, I would file off the hump.

[Justin]

As for the gap, glue wood in there if you can.  If a gap is large enough the gel idea will look bad.  Anything you can get a piece of wood in there it is the way to go.

Also, you have black showing that the back of the lug itself is touching.  You want good contact and the breech, which you have, but not at the back of the lug.  Many builders recommend a little bit of a gap back there for recoil. 

Cory, for the gap should I just mix stainable wood glue and some shavings and smear it in there, let it dry, and then flatten it? Or should I try to glue a real thing piece of wood in there like a shim and then shave that down?

Regarding the back of the lug contacting, wouldn't that be good to have that contacting a bit just like the butt of the barrel channel?

[Jerry V Lape]

I prefer to have the rear of the lug making solid contact as an extension of the bearing surfaces taking up the recoil of the barrel.  If you have already removed too much wood you may glue in additional wood or you may choose to use acraglas to bed barrel and the lug.  Just  be careful to make sure the acraglas doesn't appear on the surface.  It will certainly not hurt performance to have that solid bedding. 

[Dennis Glazener]

Also, you have black showing that the back of the lug itself is touching.  You want good contact and the breech, which you have, but not at the back of the lug.  Many builders recommend a little bit of a gap back there for recoil.

Cory Joe Stewart

Cory forgive me if I am interpreting your statement wrong but I believe you mean "but not at the back of the tang" instead of "but not at the back of the lug". There should be a small gap between the back end of the tang and were the wood normally would contact the tang. This gap allows the barrel/tang to move slightly rearward (from recoil) without having the possibility of it cracking the wrist. I usually leave a 32nd or so gap then fill in it with beeswax.

A friend of mine built a SMR with a long doll's head tang. He fired a heavy load with two balls to test the breech etc and when he did the barrel & tang moved rearward enough to bend the thin area of the doll's head tang. It raised the mid part of the tang completely out of the mortise! He had end of the tang tight against the back of the mortise and there was no where for it to go so it bent the middle of the tang upward! Evidently the breech did not have good contact with the rear of the mortise.

Hope all this makes sense.
Dennis

[Mr. Bubbles]

I would bed it with a moldable material like that.  It's not going to show.  That area doesn't take a whole lot of recoil stress, but it an intrinsically weak area of the stock.  The greater you can make the bearing surface, the greater the reinforcement between the stock and the metal.  But remember that tangs don't need to be that thick for strength.  1/8" is about all you need, so filing off the hump won't put you in any sort of structural integrity deficit.

[mark esterly]

pick up a piece of plane shaving and cut it to size and glue that in there.  you can even match the grain and no one will know when you're done.  it'll be done before you can mix up that horrible glue and sawdust.

[smallpatch]

If your recoil lug, and the rear of your barrel are tight, back up against the wood solid, there is absolutely no concern that there I'd poor contact in that part of the tang.
Pin the barrel, put in your tang bolt, and file off the excess above the stock.
Next time, do as Mr Brooks says.  File that round area off flat, then bend your tang. It will bend a little closer to the lug.

[Adrie luke]

Justin

The tang is the same height as your barrel  inlay.




imageupload

[Mike Brooks]

If your recoil lug, and the rear of your barrel are tight, back up against the wood solid, there is absolutely no concern that there I'd poor contact in that part of the tang.
Pin the barrel, put in your tang bolt, and file off the excess above the stock.
Next time, do as Mr Brooks says.  File that round area off flat, then bend your tang. It will bend a little closer to the lug.

I didn't  actually  say that this time because I'm getting tired of saying the same thing over and over.....pay attention people!

[Justin]

Justin

The tang is the same height as your barrel  inlay.




imageupload

  I know. I dug too much wood out in the last 2 inches or so of my barrel channel. This was further evidence of that because even the little higher bit you pointed out is not getting contact with the bottom of the tang lug.

My project for this evening is to mix up some wood glue and shavings and fill that area in, let it dry, and then re-scrape that area out to the proper level. Do you think that seems like the right thing to do?

[Justin]

Last night I filed a bit of the curve on the underside of the tang like this:


And then I bent the tang again. Now you can see it sinks down into the wood a bit more (more at the tail end which I'd guess is about 1/16 of an inch). I am inclined to be done with this step now but some folks suggested the tip of the tang may be a little too deep. I figure that will give me a little more wood for some relief carving but I could be wrong. Thoughts?

Now I get more contact higher on the tang mortice:


Side view with tape still on:


Side view with tape removed:


Top view -- the light on this makes it look like the very tip of the tang is bent downward but it's actually not. That's just a shadow:

[Mike Brooks]

Justin

The tang is the same height as your barrel  inlay.




imageupload

  I know. I dug too much wood out in the last 2 inches or so of my barrel channel. This was further evidence of that because even the little higher bit you pointed out is not getting contact with the bottom of the tang lug.

My project for this evening is to mix up some wood glue and shavings and fill that area in, let it dry, and then re-scrape that area out to the proper level. Do you think that seems like the right thing to do?

NO! You haven't been paying attention again. Glue and wood shavings are NOT the way to fix ANYTHING. Glue in a single piece of wood if you must. Spend some time reading past posts on the forum, this "glue and shavings subject" has been gone over in detail.

[Mike Brooks]

Last night I filed a bit of the curve on the underside of the tang like this:

What the heck kind of a hack job is that?  Square that up proper, I don't care if it is hidden under the wood...... And ease up on the inletting black or you're really going to botch this job big time.

[n stephenson]

Maybe I`m looking at it wrong and , if so, forgive, but it looks like to me that you have bent the tang too much! The end of your tang looks to be below the wrist surface . If so , take a little of the curve out , until the top of the tang flows better with the curvature of the wrist . JMHO   Nate

[n stephenson]

You DO have it bent too much!! . Your side panel is already shaped , with the side plate inlet there . You will not be able to do a lot of  shaping of the side panel , so you need to get that tang to flow with the wristline that is pre shaped onto this stock .   Nate

[rich pierce]

So, Justin, this is a good place to get advice but I hope you don’t try to build a rifle relying solely on advice here. Because that approach is tedious for everyone and typically problems that are unnecessary keep popping up because actions precede understanding.

A couple good books and videos are in order for any beginning builder, and eyes-on help from an experienced builder is even more valuable.

How are you proceeding?  What are you using for a guide?

[Chowmi]

Justin,
here's something that might help explain what we mean when we say that you bent the tang too much at the tail.

The tang has to follow the curve of the stock from the breech, flowing into the wrist and then into the comb.  This line was pre carved on your stock an is correct.  When you sink the tail of the tang, you then have to remove wood to follow the metal and it will screw up that line.  The metal follows the wood, not the other way around.  If the metal is high (like in your hump), just file it down.  The tang doesn't need to be as thick as it comes from the barrel maker.  In fact, many original tangs were tapered in thickness towards the rear. 
However, when the tail drops like yours does, you can't really add metal, so you have to file the wood down, ruining the nice architecture that was pre carved for you.

You were trying to solve a problem that really didn't need to be solved, and created a bigger one. 

Here are some crappy drawings attempting to illustrate what I mean.  I have exaggerated the curve in your tang just to amplify my point. 




Here's the barrel and stock as it should be without showing the tang cross section:




Here is an exagerrated view of what you did.  The dotted line shows what you would have to file away on the wood to meet your newly bent tang line.  Again, over-emphasized for effect. 
The tang cross section is in red. 




As said, I think you need to bend the tail of the tang back up.  If you need to add wood to the inlet, don't use glue and sawdust. 

The top of the tang should match the nice line already created for you by Jim Chambers.

Also, as Rich said, we are happy to help, but you need some reference material to work from.

Cheers,
Norm

[Justin]

Thanks folks. Norm (and others), that was very helpful. I plan to bend the tang again tonight.

Norm, what do you recommend for building the tang inlet back up where it is now dug too deeply (if not wood chips and glue) and why?

As far as the guides I am using:
1) James Turpin DVD supplied by Jim Chambers Flintlocks (which is where I bought my kit). Doesn't go into details like the questions I have been asking. It's only an hour or so DVD and just doesn't spend time on doing it the wrong way -- everything turns out perfectly in the video and he makes no mistakes so the details on doing something perfect are not always obvious.
2) I found some videos online that other builders were kind enough to post.
3) Gunsmith of Grenville County book - this is more of a reference, IMO. Not a guide.
4) Jim Chambers supplied instructions which is a 2 page list with basically no details other than sizing of drill bits.

The good thing about forums like this and other places I ask questions is that if you get tired of my questions, you're free to not reply to them.

[rich pierce]

For filling the gap, I would cut a quarter inch deeper where the low spot is, all the way toward the breech in a perfectly rectangular inlet. Make a piece of maple that just fits side to side, is deeper than needed, and sticks out a fraction into the barrel inlet. Do not make it a hammer fit or you risk breaking the stock. Brush glue on the inlet and filler piece and slide it in. Tap it down and back. Clamp it down carefully, with a thin piece of wood between clamp and bottom of the stock, and a narrow block to press the repair piece down on top. This is to protect the stock.

I use carpenter glue in a spot like that.

Next day the-inlet.

[Justin]

For filling the gap, I would cut a quarter inch deeper where the low spot is, all the way toward the breech in a perfectly rectangular inlet. Make a piece of maple that just fits side to side, is deeper than needed, and sticks out a fraction into the barrel inlet. Do not make it a hammer fit or you risk breaking the stock. Brush glue on the inlet and filler piece and slide it in. Tap it down and back. Clamp it down carefully, with a thin piece of wood between clamp and bottom of the stock, and a narrow block to press the repair piece down on top. This is to protect the stock.

I use carpenter glue in a spot like that.

Next day the-inlet.

Rich, just to clarify, are you talking about something like this?:

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

No!

Justin:  you have to remove the hump in the tang by straightening it out a bit.  That will do three things:  it will give the tang a profile shape parallel to the top of your wrist, it will lengthen the tang requiring it to me inlet again at the butt end, and it will bring the tang into contact with the bottom of your tang inlet closer to the breech.
The butt end of the tang is already too deep.  Straightening it will leave a gap under the end which, if not filled, will allow the tang to sink into the wood when you tighten down the tang screw.  So you need to cut a piece of  straight grained plain maple to FILL the bottom of the inlet, glue it in, let it cure, and re-inlet the tang.  While you are at it, finish filing that squared area where the arc used to be, as Mike so gently pointed out, and file a nicer draft on the end of the tang.  Yours is too steep, and rounded.  In order for your work to end up satisfactorily, you have to pay attention to details along the way.  It's a good thing you are asking questions:  pls. don't disregard the answers.

[Justin]

No!

Justin:  you have to remove the hump in the tang by straightening it out a bit.  That will do three things:  it will give the tang a profile shape parallel to the top of your wrist, it will lengthen the tang requiring it to me inlet again at the butt end, and it will bring the tang into contact with the bottom of your tang inlet closer to the breech.
The butt end of the tang is already too deep.  Straightening it will leave a gap under the end which, if not filled, will allow the tang to sink into the wood when you tighten down the tang screw.  So you need to cut a piece of  straight grained plain maple to FILL the bottom of the inlet, glue it in, let it cure, and re-inlet the tang.  While you are at it, finish filing that squared area where the arc used to be, as Mike so gently pointed out, and file a nicer draft on the end of the tang.  Yours is too steep, and rounded.  In order for your work to end up satisfactorily, you have to pay attention to details along the way.  It's a good thing you are asking questions:  pls. don't disregard the answers.

Oh, you mean replace the entire inlet with a block like this? (pink line)



I think I'm confused because it sounds to me you are suggesting a more involved fix than what Norm suggested. Are you suggesting an alternative approach or am I misunderstanding what you or Norm suggested?

[rich pierce]

I didn’t look closely enough it seems. Using a rectangular plug, replace and build up,a rectangular area that will encompass whatever dip or hollow that will remain.

But first get the tang to the correct profile and re-assess if you have a significant low spot or dig-out in the tang inlet that does not support the tang at all. Obviously this would be an area with no black and clearly low.