Taking Advise

[n stephenson]

It is a very cool thing to witness the power of this forum . There seems to be a constant flow of information being passed back and forth . The years and years of experience of some forum members coupled with some of the MOST talented people on the planet , make this THE GREATEST SOURCE OF INFORMATION ON THE SUBJECT EVER!!!!  This site would easily be worth paying admission to access. It is very cool to see some one in Texas having help given to him by a guy in California , especially when the guy in Texas listens to the Cali guy and gets his problem fixed as well as some input from others on how to not make the same mistake again. I know , we have all heard the saying about leading a horse to water , but you can`t make him drink. I feel safe to say that there is NOT a single forum member here , who doesn't want to see this hobby prosper and grow. Too  many of us demonstrate this every day . We have in depth conversations about how to recruit and help newcomers . With this being said , I also notice that for the MOST PART!!! the newcomers are all ears and want to soak up this info. Eagerly listening and applying what is freely given in the way of advise . Naturally a person can`t take all the remedies  given, and apply them all , nor should they . For those newcomers that aren't willing to listen to or apply the advise given . No one can , or should MAKE anyone take their advise , but , if your NOT going to take the advise of knowledgeable sources , then at least post a NEW screw up instead of the same one that you keep ignoring help on . That is why some of the best builders on here hardly ever give advise , if some one won`t listen , why waste your time?    JMHO  Nate

[smylee grouch]

Good point Nate. I have noticed that some times the new comer might use the wrong words or terminology to describe his problem or he might not know the meaning of certain terms to understand the advise given which can lead to a misunderstanding on both sides. Then again, some people ask advise to get an OK from others to do some task a certain way and when they don't get a positive reply they go into a negative mode and forge ahead on their own.

[Justin]

I have noticed that some times the new comer might use the wrong words or terminology to describe his problem or he might not know the meaning of certain terms to understand the advise given which can lead to a misunderstanding on both sides.

Yep, I definitely have this issue. Trying to figure out all the terminology.

Maybe this post is directed at me, I don't know if I haven't listened to OP's advise... has me worried now lol.

As a newcomer myself, I have been getting my information from multiple sources:
* A gunbuilder I know back home that I communicate with but don't have the ability to work with in person
* The manufacturer of the kit I bought (Jim Chambers)
* DVDs and books I own
* This forum
* A Facebook group for flintlock builders
* Other online resources like YouTube videos

What I tend to do is ask a question in multiple places and try to compile the advise from everyone and then I weigh in my own mind which option I prefer based on my goals and skill level.

I'm just figuring out that there are multiple ways to solve every problem (just like everything else in life, right?) so I think it's important for more experienced builders to offer their advise without attaching their ego to it. Maybe the less experienced builder goes with a different option suggested by someone else and then realizes they screwed up and they come back to the previous advise offered. That's part of the learning process and not working with that person directly (in person), you can't tell what has gone into their decision making process so you also can't get angry and assume they didn't seriously consider your advise and go a different route from someone else for whatever reason.

It's not entirely unlike how a child grows. I know I never thought my parents were right about anything when I was a kid and now I see my daughter doing the same to me

I'll also add that disrespectful, non-constructive tone from folks (which I've already experienced on this board, unfortunately), is not conducive to educating anyone and I'd say if your advise consists of comments like "you're going to botch this job good", you might as well not even comment since you're only doing others a disservice and not encouraging new builders to communicate and share their mistakes for others to learn from. Isn't that the goal of a "gun builder" forum? (Maybe it's not, I don't know)

[Ray Settanta]

Well, even if the person that is requesting advice on how to fix a problem won't take that advice, others on the forum will still benefit from reading it. I hope that builders don't stop posting advice because one person doesn't listen. There are more people reading it that will.

[axelp]

I have learned a ton from this site over the years. And I am not a gun builder. LOL. I visit this place everyday.

[conquerordie]

 "That is why some of the best builders on here hardly ever give advise , if some one won`t listen , why waste your time?    JMHO  Nate"

On the flip side of this Nate, if one of these "best builders" knows this could happen, then they should make no comment on the post at all. Telling someone their not gonna listen so I'm not gonna help is a waste of everyone's time. Just stay out of the conversation.

Me personally, sometimes I pose a question on a forum. Many times I'll private message a builder to ask specific questions because I believe they can help me with an issue. I've always gotten great advice in this manner. Its easier than having 20 builders tell them how to do it, get confused, make the mistake worse, then get busted on for not listening.
Greg

[oldtravler61]

  Just because you have been doing something for along time. Doesn't mean you are a great teacher.
  That's not my line. That's what a really good gun builder told me.
  A lot of people learn more by seeing than by reading. I'm one of them..!
 Awhile back there was a discussion on Peter Alexander's book. Which is a prime example of this discussion.
  Some people like it some don't.
 When I acquired my copy I thought it was way to complicated an most of what he said was over my head. I mean he does a zillion measurements. Thought he was crazy. Then I got his DVD s an it all started making since. Well at least to me anyway.
  What I'm saying is, yes it work's for you an I appreciate your input. But I just couldn't do it that way so I took another approach to my issue.
  But there is no intent against the advice it's just that I couldn't understand or I didn't have the ability to do it that way.   Oldtravler

[smylee grouch]

Justin: my post wasn't directed just to you, it was made for anyone that would or could benefit from it. Me and a lot of others here have made some of the same mistakes or had the same problems that you have had so together maybe we can help each other overcome these mishaps. Hang in there and don't give up. 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I can see both sides of the teacher/student issue.  Most of us who have been doing this work for our entire lifetime had no mentor, relying entirely on what we gleaned from publications and trial and error.  We invested our money and time.  Sometimes it is tedious to have a person new to the craft ask questions, the answers to which to some of us are self evident.  Silently, to ourselves, we ask, "Why not go out on the limb and discover the answer yourself?"  And not all of us are great teachers either.
By our own nature, we are not all blessed with the same skills and ability.  But I think we are all headed in the same direction...we want a longrifle that is as pleasing to others as it is to ourselves.  The journey to that destination is where we get satisfaction and fulfillment.  I empathize with new builders who run into problems, and who ask questions here, and enjoy the prospect of adding to someones better understanding.  God knows I have been the happy recipient many times on this great site.
There are those, perhaps, who post threads and reply to others that simply want to join in a 'conversation', and some who will even argue with someone who attempts to answer a question.  Thankfully that is rare, and we should all be grateful for this venue to express ourselves, and offer and seek advice.

[n stephenson]

Very well stated Taylor!!   Justin , this post wasn't directed at any one person in particular, just an observation on what I often see.  I once hired a local boy to help me , as I was explaining to him how I wanted something done , he proceeded to tell me that I might do something one way , and, he might do it another but, as long as it came out the same , what did it matter? I then explained to him that I had over 25 years of proven success with my method and he had ZERO!! I also told him that as long as he was working on my parts he WOULD do it my way , or don`t let the door hit him where the good Lord split him. It seems to be a common theme these days among a lot of people , especially the younger ones , that they`ve had so many people blowing feel good up their backend in an attempt to boost their "self esteem" that they have no clue that true self worth is based upon real successes , not some positive affirmation that they repeat in the mirror. Maybe if more of them understood that what they KNOW is what caused the mistake to start with, they might be more willing to listen . As I stated earlier  THE VAST MAJORITY DO LISTEN!!!   Nate

[Joe S.]

Hmmmmmm,I pondered this abit and have never seen a case where somebody bashed a fellows work.Never seen somebody say that looks like s#$t,throw it in the burn barrel.Seen folks ask for edvise and didn't want to hear what was given and a little dust up but that's on them,be careful what you ask for.You will never learn that way nor will you learn if everybody keeps telling you it looks great either and it needs work.I learned plenty here,folks went well above to help me out with my build.I emailed,used PM and the forum,great folk here.When I finally get it finished,its in a big part from help from folks here.I really think new to build guys should thank their lucky stars for any help given here.Folks that put a life time in this craft and back in the day you learned the hard way,no internet,no pre carved stocks,no decent parts,these guys blazed a trail and now offer their advise for free.They purchased books,put in a lot of shop timeto figure stuff out,if they where lucky had a mentor.Look what you have now,my thingamabob dont quite fit,pose the question here and get half a dozen answers to pick from,lucky indeed.

[Mike Brooks]

Hmmmmmm,I pondered this abit and have never seen a case where somebody bashed a fellows work.Never seen somebody say that looks like s#$t,throw it in the burn barrel.Seen folks ask for edvise and didn't want to hear what was given and a little dust up but that's on them,be careful what you ask for.You will never learn that way nor will you learn if everybody keeps telling you it looks great either and it needs work.I learned plenty here,folks went well above to help me out with my build.I emailed,used PM and the forum,great folk here.When I finally get it finished,its in a big part from help from folks here.I really think new to build guys should thank their lucky stars for any help given here.Folks that put a life time in this craft and back in the day you learned the hard way,no internet,no pre carved stocks,no decent parts,these guys blazed a trail and now offer their advise for free.They purchased books,put in a lot of shop timeto figure stuff out,if they where lucky had a mentor.Look what you have now,my thingamabob dont quite fit,pose the question here and get half a dozen answers to pick from,lucky indeed.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say I have probably said that sometime in my past. Received a PM not too  long ago calling me a bunghole (or the equivalent ) and not to post any help as my presentation is a bit rude. (Imagine, me rude.... )  Oh well, Kind of gets me off the hook.........
 Here's my take. Some folks can build guns and some can't. Pretty simple. It's not a bad thing if you can't build guns, there's lots of things I can't do and I pay people to do those things for me.

[WKevinD]

I visit some of the facebook building and general flint interest sites and spend alot of time biting my tongue and not saying anything. Since being a regular reader and occasional participant on this site I realize there is a huge amount of misinformation available on the other sites. Bad info on building, shooting, history of, cleaning of...on and on.
So when I see a new guy not accepting valuable advice or constructive criticism I can kind of see where they are coming from, they have have been spending too much time listening to the amature BS on facebook and have not learned enough yet to be discriminating or accepting of real information.
I also understand the frustration of the olde tyme curmudgeons but hope they continue keeping everybody on cringing, smiling  and on track.
Kevin   

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I was a newbie once.  Probably still am.  Since I do not have a mentor to work directly with, most of my support comes from here.  I have always found everyone to be super nice and helpful.  Even Mr. Brooks. 

Cory Joe Stewart

[Joe S.]

Hmmmmmm,I pondered this abit and have never seen a case where somebody bashed a fellows work.Never seen somebody say that looks like s#$t,throw it in the burn barrel.Seen folks ask for edvise and didn't want to hear what was given and a little dust up but that's on them,be careful what you ask for.You will never learn that way nor will you learn if everybody keeps telling you it looks great either and it needs work.I learned plenty here,folks went well above to help me out with my build.I emailed,used PM and the forum,great folk here.When I finally get it finished,its in a big part from help from folks here.I really think new to build guys should thank their lucky stars for any help given here.Folks that put a life time in this craft and back in the day you learned the hard way,no internet,no pre carved stocks,no decent parts,these guys blazed a trail and now offer their advise for free.They purchased books,put in a lot of shop timeto figure stuff out,if they where lucky had a mentor.Look what you have now,my thingamabob dont quite fit,pose the question here and get half a dozen answers to pick from,lucky indeed.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say I have probably said that sometime in my past. Received a PM not too  long ago calling me a bunghole (or the equivalent ) and not to post any help as my presentation is a bit rude. (Imagine, me rude.... )  Oh well, Kind of gets me off the hook.........
 Here's my take. Some folks can build guns and some can't. Pretty simple. It's not a bad thing if you can't build guns, there's lots of things I can't do and I pay people to do those things for me.

I stand by it,you or anybody else here as long as I been on here never said it with venom in the post.There's a big difference in how its said.Part of all this is,as was with school back in the day, knowing your teachers,teachers knowing their students.Once they figured me out and I them it worked.What worked for me wouldn't work on the next guy.I could be told hey a-hole what are you doing,looks like s#$t,you can do better than that.The other kid would curl up in a ball on the floor.Fast forward,here we are and it seems some of the students,well......might be student type "B"LOL

[rich pierce]

OK we’ve covered taking advice.  Maybe get back to actual asking for and giving of advice?

[n stephenson]

Rich , you have a good point, feel free to rename the post. It really is more of that situation anyway . For the most part,  we do  see a really good exchange of info. I know that there is GREAT help , right here for the asking , and feel blessed  to  participate , I wish this was available when I started , instead of looking through a magnifying glass at a black and white picture in a book in the best light you could find. I would have gladly listened to the folks who actually knew what that rifle in the book looked like. I guess I really wanted to know what it looked like?   Nate

[ddoyle]

Still being close to my start in this great hobby I am cognizant of the fact that when we start trying to learn the trade our (mine anyway) level of ignorance extends not only to Architecture, History and Technique but it also encompasses an ignorance to just how great some of the builders are who freely offer hard earned advice.  In this day of everyone having a twiterifiedbookface published opinion it is hard to realize that what you are getting on ALR is worth it's weight in gold- even if the perception the reader has of the delivery causes hurt feelings .  Having thin skin myself and being not too bright I am very, very grateful to just how tactful and patient so many people are. 

This medium (text on a screen in your home) is alot more difficult to make work.  I learned two manual trades from very grumpy, very screamy, very irratable guys- for some reason it is easier to let the water bead on the ducks back in person, the typed word often hurts more then the screamed admonishment. Also got reamed and raked over coals by guys expert in making you feel bad in basic and that also was never a bother but for some reason a forum post can ruin ones day???

It is common in many trades that a Journeyman must be able to pass on his skill to apprentice, being able to do that despite the student's short comings is the mark of a truly accomplished craftsman who values his trade. Being able to do that online- well that is a serious skill. Lord knows it must be frustrating!

 

[davec2]

Back when "email" was new and first being used in the workplace, I was a project engineer designing and building space and weapon propulsion systems.  After people started using email on a regular basis, I noticed that they would often take umbrage at some comment or turn of phrase that, if said in person, would not have bothered them in the least.  The lack of facial expression or voice inflection....or the fact that the writer often could not write as well as he or she could say what they meant out loud....often led the recipient to take offense or be hurt when there was no such intention on the senders part.  After putting up with this for a while, I required that only simple information be exchanged via email.  If you had anything that required a lot of discussion, I made people physically talk to each other.

Well, that was a long time ago now and all of us have been overtaken by events.  Most of the communications these days happen via black and white letters on a screen....even between people sitting in the same room !!!  I would just say that before you take what someone types as an insult or a rude comment, I would read the line out loud to yourself using different tones and voice inflections.  You can often read the same sentence in a way that would make you smile, laugh, cry, or get fighting mad.  I always assume the one that makes me laugh was the style intended. 

Someone once called me to find out if what I had said in an email was really meant as an insult.  I told him it certainly wasn't...it was just my sense of humor that didn't translate well into text.  And then I told him, " if you ever aren't sure how I meant something, assume it was a benign comment.  If I'm going to insult you, believe me, there won't be any room for misinterpretation !"

[Mike Brooks]

Someone once called me to find out if what I had said in an email was really meant as an insult.  I told him it certainly wasn't...it was just my sense of humor that didn't translate well into text.  And then I told him, " if you ever aren't sure how I meant something, assume it was a benign comment.  If I'm going to insult you, believe me, there won't be any room for misinterpretation !"

BINGO!  There's the problem that gets me in trouble all the time.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

..."the problem"...singular?

[Black Hand]

I've found that being concise and to the point rubs some people the wrong way - these people also seem to be overly sensitive and get offended by my comments made to other people's posts. I can't see the point of sugar-coating and dancing about, as some people just don't seem to understand what I am trying to say. I'd rather be concise than for someone to misinterpret what I posted. Take the information at face value and stop putting your personal bias and interpretation on the post - in other words, don't read between the lines for subtext that isn't there...

[Mike Brooks]

..."the problem"...singular?

UH_OH.....You mean I have more then one problem? (paranoia sets in )

[Leroyvdh]

I don't comment too much. Also being fairly new to this game only a coupla years. This site has been great I have learned a ton.. Would like to thank all for passing knowledge on. I'm in the trades also, sometimes you can't get through to an apprentice. I can be thick headed on occasion (My dutch heritage  ) I do enjoy reading your builds and advice..
Thank you Leroy

[Jim Kibler]

Here's one of the problems.  People who don't "know" often don't realize.  People who can't "see" aren't typically aware of it.  You could argue that if they understood and could see things they might be further along than they are.  Reminds me of when I have my contacts out...  The house looks much better and the girlfriend says I'm more apt to tell her she looks nice!  Ha!  I suppose this is the case with all of us to some degree, but it helps to at least be aware of it.

Jim