Lyman GPR 54 cal

[jambuster]

Well i have been wanting to get a rifle to shoot round balls for a few years. I just wanted to get into traditional black powder hunting and shooting. Bought a GPR this week in 54 cal  to hunt pigs  and deer in Mississippi and tennessee.

I selected the GPR  because it was reasonably priced and looked pretty close to a traditional gun. Going to give it a try in the morning. Maybe do a little stalking next week. Any suggestion on ball diameter and patch . I could only find Pyrodex RS and thought I'd start with about 85 grains. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[OldMtnMan]

.530 ball and a .015 patch should get you started.

[Daryl]

We have and have had several lads here with GPR's. Their most common loads were .535" ball with 10 ounce denim - that is .022" thick.

They shoot very well with that combination, along with 80 to 85gr. 2F GOEX on the trail.  We have many shots from 70 to 110yards.  As a matter of

fact, about all guys shooting .54's used 80 to 85gr. 2F, however one lad used 85gr. 3F GOEX.

One used 70gr. for the close shots and 85gr. for the long shots, same sight alignment.

[Pukka Bundook]

I started out with a GPR when we first came over here.  Very accurate rifle it was too. I used .530" and some very tight weave pillow casing mother had on hand.

Used 60 grs for target, and 120 for hunting. Never let me down but maybe more powder than I needed. always Go 2F.
Used deer tallow as a lube and it always served well.
For hunting, I put some wasp nest down the bore first, so lube wouldn't bother the powder if left in a few days.

Best,
Richard.

[OldMtnMan]

I've had 5 GPR's and I started all of them with a .530 ball and .015 patch. They were all accurate. After about 100 shots when the bores smoothed out I used .018 pillow ticking.

Daryl.........I can't believe you can that load down the bore without pounding it in. It's .017 over bore size.

[Daryl]

That's correct, Pete .022" patch and ball .005" undersized.  Everyone up here uses the same load combinations.
We find they shoot in all rifles, that being a .005" undersized ball and .022" denim patch.
A short starter and one smack on the starter's knob starts the ball - long shaft is put on the
top of the ball and one smack and down she goes- 5 to 6", however long the starter's long shaft is.
Then the rifle's rod is used to seat it on the powder - NP.
My wife and daughter have no trouble with this combination (highlighted above) in a .45 GM barrel.
Many of us preferred the .0235" railroad mattress ticking, but it is no longer available to us.
We ALL find these simple and easy to load. No wiping is ever necessary for an entire day's shooting.

Photobucket seems to have copy-writed all my videos and I cannot upload them to my computer.

[OldMtnMan]

I have to smack my .530 ball and .015 patch. I believe you. I just don't see how it's possible? I understand the tight patch wipes away the fouling, but your load would be hard to get down on the 1st shot and clean bore.

I guess I won't know until I try it.

[smylee grouch]

A well polished crown is one of the key factors of loading a tight fitting  load combo.

[sghart3578]

I too bought a Lyman GPR in .54 cal.  I read all of the posts about how it takes 100 rounds or so to smooth out the barrel.

I must have got lucky with mine.  It shot well from the start.

I read the instructions that came with the rifle.  I wet the bore with solvent and let it soak over night.  I then vigorously scrubbed the bore.

I shoot home cast .530 balls from a Lee mold with .015 or .018" spit patches.  I use 30 gr of FFFG at the 25 yard line and 70 gr of FFFG at 75-100 yards.  Works great.  I also use mink oil on my patches with good results.

My next experiment is with some .527 balls from Track of the Wolf to see if they are easier to load and to see how accurate they are in my rifle.

[OldMtnMan]

I agree that the barrel will still shoot good while breaking in. The rifling comes pretty sharp from the factory and it takes some shots to smooth out. Some guys will get cut patches before it breaks in. I would imagine type and size of patch determine this. Some will speed up the process by using JB and other abrasives to hone it in. I prefer to shoot it.

I've never seen one that didn't shoot good. Even the Trade Rifle and Deerstalker with the 1-48 twist shoot a PRB really good.

[HAWKEN]

  I too must be one of the lucky ones.  My .54 GPR flintlock shot well right from the start, with 70 grains of 3f and a .015 patch.  Keep yer powder dry..........robin

[Daryl]

This is from another thread.

"Scotch-Brite is really good at smoothing rough bores.  As it follows the rifling, it will not hurt accuracy - at least from our experiments - all good results on smoothing up bores, even bores with rough spots."

I've not seen one that did not shoot well HAWKEN.  However, the ones I have seen were smoothly crowned and shot well with .020" to .022" patches.

[OldMtnMan]

I'd love to see a video of you loading a GPR with the .022 patch/.535 ball Daryl.

Just to satisfy my curiosity.

[Pukka Bundook]

Me too Mountain man.

Not saying it can't be done, but the maths doesn't add up.  Mine was always tight with a 15 thou patch and a .530" ball.   

BTW, I don't know how many were made, my GPR was a 1~48" twist.  It said they were I~66 or something, but mine was definitely a 1 in 48.
Still shot Very accurately, even with 120 grs., Just a bit higher that's all.

I wondered for a bit, Daryl, if your pals shooting these were using 11 thousandth patches?  As in, 11 thou down one side of the ball, and 11 thou back up the other side equals 22 thou......

All best,
Richard.

[OldMtnMan]

Richard.........The very early GPR's were supposed to be 1-66 twist. I never saw one. Then they changed to 1-60 and that's what they've been for decades and still are. I've never heard of a GPR with 1-48 twist. That's just the Trade Rifle and Deerstalker that have the 1-48.

The GPH (Hunter version) is 1-32 twist for conicals and I guess sabots if you want to use them. It's the same gun as the GPR except for the twist. Barrels are interchangeable.

Does your gun have two wedge keys?

[Pukka Bundook]

Pete,

This one was a full -on Great Plains, right barrel length and marked in that Bold way they did on these, it was for sure 1 in 48"  I was a bit disappointed for a start, and measured it numerous times, but it always said the same.  Seeing as it still shot well I got over it.
Never seen another with that twist and owned a .50 cal as well.
Both were bought second hand.  Might have an old 35 mm photo somewhere, but it was before we had digital.

Richard.

[Daryl]

I've been showing the same video for years - Same .022" patch and .445" ball in a .450" bore with .012" rifling.  Photobucket will not allow me to upload it  back onto my computer.  Pictures yes, videos no.

There are a number of guys here now who also shoot those loads so they never have to wipe the bores while shooting.

I have 2 videos in a folder in my photobucket account with balls .005" under bore size, loaded with .020" and .022" patches, one with Taylor loading a .020" denim patch with a .495" ball in his .50 Rice Bl. The other is me loading my .45 with a .445" ball and .022" patch- with the rifle's rod after firing over 50 shots that day - no wiping at ANY time.

Most of the guys on here are tired of watching them as they've been posted a dozen times, most likely.  They've been posted just about every time a newcomer to this forum, cannot load the same loads we've been using for the past 40 years.  I posted the pictures of some of my muzzle crowns so you could compare them to your rifle's muzzles.  As barrels come from the MFG'R, they crowns have sharp corners due to the chamfering tool used on the lathe.

We also tested a .508" ball and the same .020" patch in Taylor's barrel - THAT one sealed, whereas the first one didn't with 100gr. 2f powder, however did with only 80 gr. 2F.  In that 42" bl. 80gr. 2F produced only 1,450fps & showed the odd scorch mark past the groove mark on recovered patches.  That shows gas blowby. You will not see that with a .022" patch and ball that is .005" smaller than the bore, in a barrel with .010" to .012" rifling, but might see it with the same combo in a barrel with .016" deep rifling if heavy charges are used.  The .508" ball in the .500" bore was marginally harder to push down, but not much harder.

You see, once the ball and patch are seated into the bore, they are now groove size, with some 'compression force', as the tighter loads do seal better than those with only a few though compression in the bottoms of each groove.

What about the chunk shooters and BR shooters who use bore size or larger balls and .022" patches?  I am surprised neither of you are aware of the way those guys load their rifles.

I suppose it is possible they might use a .015" patch if the ball was .010" LARGER than the bore.  Most use .022" denim, teflon coated.

There is no one up here shooting less than .020" patches - why I even used .02335" (23 1/2 thousandths) railroad ticking in my .32, with .320" balls & the grooves were 1/2 the side of the lands- exactly opposite what should have been, but more common with originals.

Maybe you guys are using lead with some tin or antimony in it, not dead soft - 99.6% pure lead.

 

[Daryl]

I'd love to see a video of you loading a GPR with the .022 patch/.535 ball Daryl.

Just to satisfy my curiosity.

Loading their .54's with that combo is what 3 guys who shoot .54's on our trail do every time they shoot. Oops, except Len that is. He uses the thicker Railroad mattress ticking we measured at .0235", with a .535' ball.

I don't have a GPR and neither do any of the guys who shoot with us now, so cannot make that video.  I use that same combination (.005"undersize and .022") of ball and patch, in my .36 & .50.  I did use it in my .32 ?? barrel, .40 Goodoien and .45 GM barrels, but I sold those rifles.  Too, in the Goodoien barrel, the ball was actually .398", same measurement as the bore, so I was loading a bore sized ball in it along with the .022" patch, but also the .0235" patch until I sold it.  That barrel had wide grooves, making loading very easy.  My .69 likes the .682" ball of 482gr. and a .030" patch with no gas leakage up to 200gr. 2F. The patches are re-usable.  It also shoots well with the .677" WW ball or .675" pure lead ball and the 14 ounce denim patch I measure at .034". Those patches are also reusable.

In the .36, I am currently using my remainder of the .0235" patches and a .350" ball. The barrel is a Rice, flat bottomed at .010" deep. Thus the groove to groove is .380"  Those patches + ball dia. runs .397", .017" larger than the groove diameter.  I showed Taylor I loaded the ball 1/4" down into the bore by just pushing on it with the short peg on my short starter, then one smack, now it went 6", then the rifle's rod down to the powder - 2 FINGERS only on the rod - yes - I had to squeeze the rod with my fingers, but - needed only those two- index and middle finger.

Just about every day we shoot the trail, someone will mention the thin patches many of the guys on this forum use & need to wipe the bores due to hard loading.  We find that more than quite interesting, actually.  Have you guys read Ned Robert's book, "The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle"? I bought my copy in 1972 & studied it.  Mind you, it took me 2 or 3 years to figure out the re-crowning and use of .022" denim for patches so, as Ned wrote the Dutchman said " ven you loads der next vun, you cleans der last vun". To me, that meant it needed some compression in the bottom of the grooves to be snug enough to do it's job.  He was right - it works.

Since a lot of the guys here never take their barrels off to clean them,  sometimes I wonder how many of those barrels actually get clean.  As well, how many of those barrels have shot Pyrodex or other perchlorate or chlorate powders? A rough bore will certainly hold fouling.  We, none of us here, EVER have trouble with fouling & we all take the barrels off our rifles, even the long rifles, for cleaning. Water is sucked in and pumped out until they are clean, then dried, then flushed with a water displacing lubricant, then excess wiped out again and oiled.

[Don Steele]

I'm coming to this conversation kinda late, so forgive me if I missed it, but in all the arithmetic about ball size and patch thickness I haven't seen anything said about choice of patch lube, nor has anyone clearly described how they are measuring their patch material.
I have both a stainless caliper, and a micrometer. I'm not a machinist, and most likely using them incorrectly. When I'm shopping for patch material, I take note of a compressed measurement, and a non-compressed measurement. Whenever I see a discussion of patch thickness, or get into one with a fellow shooter...I find it really helps to first understand HOW the measurements are being taken before we start throwing around random numbers at each other.
 
In my 50 cal Green Mountain barrels, for serious target shooting I'm loading a .500 ball and 10 oz. Denim. I can load it with my rifle's ramrod...carefully, but find it's significantly easier and more consistent to use a 3/8th's solid brass "range rod". One long smooooth push. If I'm using a wet patch, liquid lube either a commercial product or something of my own making...I can fire multiple shots without wiping.
If I'm using a "Dry Patch"...i.e. Teflon coated, or water soluble oil solution, saturated and allowed to dry overnight...
I'm going to be wiping..after EVERY shot.

[Pukka Bundook]

Daryl,

I do thank you for the great pains you have taken in reply to our posts.
Mine had no re-crown , just a factory finish, but had been fired enough to be very smooth.
Now, the end justifies the means so they say;
Yours with these heavy patches appear to load easily and no wiping.  If they also shoot very well, there is no arguing with your success!

All I can say is that I used a 15 thou patch, and a.530" and 60 -120 grs of  2F powder, and at 50 yards it would put the balls pretty near touching.  (heavier loading would group about 1 1/2" higher at that close range.)
I never did use a short starter, and with deer tallow it would do a trail -walk with only a damp patch down the bore about twice.
Really I can't see that I would have chaned anything with that rifle or load, as I can see no reason to.   Yes, different to yours, but it still worked.

I did notice when firing a percussion musket in musket bore, (.760" to be precise) with a ball of .750, sandwiched between two thick felt wads and lubed, that the ball had a definite "equator" around it's centre on being recovered.  This means that the windage was being taken up on firing as the ball 'bumped up'.
If a musket ball bumps up and fills the bore , should not a patched ball do so and scour out the fouling just as well?......providing not a craggy bore?

I do use soft lead, water pipe or roofing lead.
I am happy your loading procedure is working so well, but am also happ with mine. :-)  This means we are both happy and unlikely to change.
Horse races and all that.

Very best wishes, and please forgive me wondering about the viability of your loading. It just sounded so different to what I have heard of and used for many years, I Had to question it!!   

Richard.

[OldMtnMan]

Ok, time for me to give a small bio and some facts so you understand better. Ignore me if this bores you.

I have been at muzzleloaders as long as you guys. I started in 1980 with Hawken style guns. I also shot CAS for decades. Always the BP class and always max loads to smoke out the CF shooters who shot peanut loads. There was 4-5 of us who did that and it was great fun. I did try one long rifle, but didn't like the stock design and went back to the Hawkens. I was younger and stronger and the heavy barreled Hawkens never bothered me. It does now and i'll talk about that later.

 My cleaning method has always been to flush the barrel in a bucket. I experimented with different temp water and ended up using hot water with a little Ballistol in it to prevent flash rusting. It's served me well all these years.

An old timer showed me how to smooth out the crown when I first started and i've always done that. I did it with emery paper and my thumb. So, i've never had to deal with a sharp edged crown. It's the first thing I do with a new gun.

I use to go to fabric shops with a mic to buy patch material. Mostly always pillow ticking as I never had a need for anything thicker. I don't judge how a PRB starts in the bore, but how it pushes down to the powder. Then of course how the shot patches look.
 
  I stopped buying from a fabric store when I moved to the small mountain town I live in now. It only has one fabric store and they have a poor selection. I buy my material now from October Country. He seems to do a good job of measuring and washing the material he sells.

 I never got into casting. I'm not sure why, but I haven't. I live in an apartment and didn't want to make a mess or stink it up. So, i've bought balls from those that do cast and use pure lead. I even buy the commercial balls from Hornady and Speer who claim pure lead.

So, the bottom line is I use a proper method to clean, measure the patch material, and use pure lead balls. (I hope)

I'd like to mention one other thing that some might be curious about. A while back I was going to have a TOW Hawken kit built. I had most of the money and a builder lined up. Actually, the builder was doing it free, because he knew it was a dream of mine and he likes bringing dreams come true. A really nice guy and good friend.

 Then I got to thinking about the weight of a Hawken. At 75 years old my back is in bad trouble. I have a bone disease and have broke my back 3 times in the last 5 years. The weight of a Hawken is more than my back can handle. I didn't want my friend to build me a gun I couldn't use. So, I thought it best to cancel the idea and get a gun that I could hunt with. I wanted a Hawken style gun, but with a short barrel. The shorter the better. I also wanted a .54 to use on elk and bear. I decided the Lyman Deerstalker would be perfect. It's a gun i'd never consider when I was younger and stronger, but if i'm to continue hunting it's my only option. It also hardly fits into a Long Rifle forum and maybe I should leave if it's the gun i'm going to use. Getting old is a series of compromises to continue what was easy when younger. This is mine.

[Daryl]

Pete and Richard, I fully understand where you are both coming from.  Everyone must use what works for them.

I measure my material with dial calipers. I have 3 different makes of these and they give 3 different measurements. I pick the middle pair as my go-to calipers. They've never lost their zero- likely no metal chips in the teeth - yet. The do need cleaning (of chips) now and then if you work with metal, filing metal, etc. We've noted this on this forum many times as well. I pinch the upper and lower jaws on the material as hard as my fingers can pinch - THAT is what I call the patch thickness.  The three measurements my calipers give, is .001" apart. This is due likely to the slightly different width of their jaws.
My mic, compressed on the material usually gives .003" to .005" smaller measurement than the calipers I use. Thus, the 12 ounce .030" denim I use in the .69, is .025" in the mic, and the 14 ounce runs .030" in the mic, not .034" with the calipers.  The 10 ounce denim, measures .0220" to.0225" with the calipers, but .0205" with the mic.

We use WWWF+oil for trail walks, and Track's mink oil or Neetsfoot oil for hunting.

Winter Windshield Washer Fluid + about 1oz. oil per 10 ounces fluid.

I only add the oil to slow evapouration in the summer time.  It is not needed, but goes into every batch I make up - habit I guess.

If your gun shoots cleanly, gives good accuracy and the patches are not burnt, cut of otherwise are re-usable, there is nothing wrong with your combination, imho.

As Dphar notes now and then, there is a lot of Chinese 'cotton' denim & ticking, pocket drill, etc, on the market that is inferior to other cloths. I have never had trouble with denim that is

marked by the ounce - ie: 8oz is .019" to .020", 10oz is .0220" to .0225", 12oz is .030" and 14oz is .034". I assume this denim is likely made States-side or in Canada.

One thing I found with store-bought patches, is the Ox-Yoke .018" I got from Track for experiments, measured .015" for me.  There were some .020" OxYoke patches I got back in the 80's that

also measured .015", with my calipers - at that time, I did not have dial calipers, just verniers.  Now that I can't read them without extra magnification like a magnification visor, I use dial calipers.

[Darkhorse]

My first flintlock was a Great Plains rifle in .54 with the 1-60 twist. At that time you could order the GPR rifle with either the 1-60 or 1-48, I'm not sure if you can still order either one or not. Before that I had a Renegade cap lock in .54 cal. I bought in 1976, the year I started shooting black powder. My hunting load has always been a .530 round ball and .018 pillow ticking always bought at a fabric store several yards at a time and always measured with a micrometer.
I cast my own Round balls out of dead soft lead. I was mentored that if you cannot cut a gouge with your fingernail then the leads too hard. I never had a problem starting or seating this combo. Then I loaned out my casting gear and it never came home so  I started using swaged balls. That's when my problems started. Today I sometimes can't start this load. I do have shoulder impingement problems in both shoulders along with other problems age brings on and that's part of the problem. But I think the real problem is these swaged balls. They are much harder than the soft lead I once used and sometimes I've noticed no expansion when I recovered the animal, and they also don't form to the patched rb and barrel either.
Now I shoot 2 patch thickness's one is the .018 really dense material the other is a less dense .015 that loads easy and shoots really good. When I go hunting I start the first round with a mallet using the .018 patch but I also carry a strip of the .015 for follow up shots as it's much quicker to load.
In the .54 the .015 holds up well with 80 grains of 3f even though it's starting to burn through a little it still delivers the accuracy I need.

[jambuster]

When i bought the gun last week i bought some .535 balls and some Thompson pre lubed patches . I had some .530 balls at home. I will try both since i have them . These patches say 54 to 56 cal. On the package .Anybody have any idea how thick they are. I can mic them at work just haven't yet.

Well if you read my original post than you have figured out i didn't get out this weekend . Spraing my ankle. Not a total loss i  read a number of posts on this forum.

[Don Steele]

Thank You Daryl.
I have similar equipment and experience measuring fabric. Once I find something that works for me, I record all the details I can about it in an effort to be able to find the same material again when needed. I also take a cell phone pic. of the end of the bolt for my records.
I've also had the same experience with commercial pre-lubed patches friends are using. I believe the measurement they put on the package is what you and I would call "Non-compressed". At the end of the day of course...it only matters that the material works for it's intended purpose and a shooter has some kind of reference to be able to get more of it.
My buddy thinks he's shooting "20 thousandth's" patches. They aren't, but that's what it says on the package so he knows what to buy next time.
His lack of interest in all the OCD details doesn't seem to hold him back though. Last Friendship, he shot a "50" on the offhand rifle line. Year before, he won a gold medal on the primitive pistol range.