BJ's Gunmaker's Horse

[Dennis Glazener]

I am making one of BJ's Gun Maker Horse's for myself and I would be interested to hear if anyone has adapted the plans to the  proper height to work while sitting down. If so what height was used? Is it something you would do again i.e. is it comfortable, was it a good move or should I abandon the thought?

The reason I ask is that I am having knee/hip problems standing at my bench over an hour or so at a time. Just not sure trying to work sitting down is worth pursuing.

Years ago I had a friend of mine give me a special chair that his dad made so he could operate his lathe/mill etc while sitting down. I tried it a time or two and never did fell comfortable nor get the hang of using it, of course back then I didn't have a problem standing!
Dennis

[dogcatcher]

No idea as to the height you will need.  But because of a spinal cord injury, I am the proud owner of 2 walkers and a power chair, I cannot stand without some sort of assistance.  My lathe is set up to use a bar stool, where I am half sitting and halfway standing, but still supported by the bar stool.  In my shop, I have almost every tool set up at a level so that I can use the bar stool.  I had to use the bar stool, so that I could keep circulation to my legs, a chair was hurting my circulation. 

What I did, was set each tool at a height that I thought was "good".  First I used 2 saw horse kits, and kept changing the leg height until I felt comfortable with that tool.  The sawhorse brackets, were the $4 tin version from Harbor Freight.  I wasted a couple of 2x4s on getting the heights close to what I wanted.  But in the end, I can spend hours half sitting on that stool and be pretty comfortable. 

I have looked the Gunmaker's Horse, by the way I do like your choice of "title" for it.  At one time I had a similar setup for a lathe stand.  If I was to built one, I would have to build a bench top version, so that it could be clamped or bolted to the workbench.  There is no room in my shop for a floor version.   

[ltdann]

I am making one of BJ's Gun Maker Horse's for myself and I would be interested to hear if anyone has adapted the plans to the  proper height to work while sitting down. If so what height was used? Is it something you would do again i.e. is it comfortable, was it a good move or should I abandon the thought?

Dennis

It's easy enough to figure out.  Sit in the chair you plan on using at the bench.  Tuck your elbow into the body and have your fore arm parallel to the floor.  Measure from your elbow to the floor and that will give you elbow resting height.

Subtract 2-3 inches for the elbow height and that's height you should be doing all your work at.

Just finished a week long ergonomics class yesterday, by gum!

If that ends up being too low, you might need to got to a sit rest chair- kinda like a bar stool that you can stand and sit as need.

[ddoyle]

Dennis,

I do not know if the design will work for you. Maybe you cannot get close enough with with out your knees running into to the beam? The beams depth is possibley a problem.

I think you need a good vise on a single post anchored to the floor. A moveable and adjustable height forearm support for the hangey out end. Then you can get in close enough to replicate your body position to the work when standing?

You know the project of creating some ideas to help people to be able to work on Long Rifles after they cannot stand is probabley a more worthy project then building a long rifle!
Anyone out there close to Dennis with a welder/chop saw and some spare time? Be a big favor to alot of people to work out some ideas. Not many of us will be standing right to the end!

[Mark Elliott]

I am currently about 5' 9" tall.   I lowered my gunstockers bench so that the gun would be about elbo height when I was sitting on a 24" stool.    Actually,  the gun is a little higher than my elbo, which may not be optimal.  The top of my vise (wood carvers vise) is about 37.5" off the floor.   It has worked only so well.   I find that I still have to stand half the time to get over the work.   I guess that sitting half the time, doubles the times I want to work at the bench.    I think in order to really work sitting,  I would need a work holder (not necessarily a bench) that allows me to tilt and rotate the rifle.    Barring that,   I think that lowering my bench another 1.5" might help.    However,  some operations using a rasp or a plane require me to put my shoulder into it which I must do standing.      I don't know if that helps you any or not.

[ltdann]

Another thing you might try is anti-fatigue mats.  I put a few of these on my floor along the work bench and all my leg pains went away and I was able to work all day without sitting.

https://www.amazon.com/Interlocking-Borders-Exercise-Flooring-Children/dp/B0765BFK6Q/ref=lp_3407941_1_25?s=exercise-and-fitness&ie=UTF8&qid=1511016180&sr=1-25

[jerrywh]

Dennis.
    I think what you need is a post that is adjustable in the middle of the floor.  I have a very bad back and the only thing that works for me is the adjustable post with an adjustable stool. My stool will go up to 36" and I can work at eye level if need be.   Remember-- you will get worse as the years go by.  From my experience a set level doesn't work very well.

[Mark Elliott]

I would tend to agree with Jerry.   If I could weld better,  I would build such a thing.

[Dennis Glazener]

Dennis.
    I think what you need is a post that is adjustable in the middle of the floor.  I have a very bad back and the only thing that works for me is the adjustable post with an adjustable stool. My stool will go up to 36" and I can work at eye level if need be.   Remember-- you will get worse as the years go by.  From my experience a set level doesn't work very well.

Thanks Jerry, it makes sense about the adjustable post and I know you are right about not getting any better!

Dennis

[B.Habermehl]

Dennis did you ever try a bar stool type seat? I have seen some work table seats with hight adjustments and lower back supports. I think you need to decide in your seat before you set up your bench hight. Also my horse can be modified to be a three footed set up. This can get one set of feet out of the way. Just some food for thought. BJ

[Dave Patterson]

I've been thinking some version of the old-timey (spin seat to adjust height) piano stool, either free standing, or attached to the bench.

[runastav]

Dennis I feel with you! me to have a very bad back (Spinal injury in 1985) and have problem with standing and sitting so must take a lot of brakes when working
Runar

[ltdann]

https://www.amazon.com/Balt-Circulation-Adjustable-Height-1-Carton/dp/B008OTCCH8/ref=as_at?creativeASIN=B008OTCCH8&linkCode=w61&imprToken=t3FowB.wUgt.QoEyAXSXIA&slotNum=4&tag=draftchairs-20

[Dennis Glazener]

Dennis did you ever try a bar stool type seat? I have seen some work table seats with hight adjustments and lower back supports. I think you need to decide in your seat before you set up your bench hight. Also my horse can be modified to be a three footed set up. This can get one set of feet out of the way. Just some food for thought. BJ

The more I think about it the more I believe I will go ahead and build your bench to the standard height, then try different chairs/stools. I can always cut the legs shorter if need be. My wife has one of the old style piano stools that spin to raise or lower. I can get an idea of different seating heights using that.

Thanks,
Dennis

[dogcatcher]

There are some nice adjustable height bar stools on the market.  I had thought of one of them for my shop, but when I was looking I found 3 used bar stools that cost me a total of $10.  Now I have 3 different height bar stools. 

If you go the bar stool route, I recommend sitting on the one you will use and measuring for height of the bench, then try sort of sitting and leaning against it and check what height.  I need mine for support, but I find that I sort of sit and stand leaned against the stool most of the time.  It means I am a little lower than sitting on it, so I went back and lowered my work bench about an inch. 

[gumboman]

This might be helpful.

http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Types_of_Tools/Vises/Erlewine_ShopStand.html

[yellowhousejake]

Dennis, I just finished mine and did change it for working sitting down, though I use a high stool. I made it quite tall, 42" to the top of the beam. I figure it is a lot easier to make it shorter than taller. So I took my current bench height, 38", and went four more inches.

I also turned the left side foot 90 degrees so it would not interfere with a stool. I find I always work just to the right of the vise, and that put my foot right smack on top of the bench foot. As a plus, I found that the bench simply will not rack side to side. I think I could gouge as hard as I wanted on a barrel channel without worry. I will find out this week.

DAve

[B.Habermehl]

Cool, it looks good. Interesting idea on the leg. I have given some thought to changing one of the legs to a post for the times I take the horse to a show like Dixons, where you set up on uneven surfaces. I strongly recommend that you look at the lead screw and associated parts from McMaster Carr. You will find my original idea using a stove bolt for the tension screw for the vice lacking. The bolt and nut will sooner or later gall up and seize. Guaranteed to be at a inoppertune time. Thanks for posting pictures of your bench, all ideas and expierence are a benefit to the group. I encourage any of the members that build some version of this tool to post pictures and describe their modifications. DDoyl has a really cool take on the vice set up. I hope he has time to shoot some pics and describe his set up. BJH

[elkhorne]

Dennis & BJH,
I also  have back issues with my lower back but thankfully nothing like so many others I know area in and fighting with. I have been wrestling with a "proper heighth bench for a year. I am experimenting with a sturdy adjustable metal sawhorse from Home Depot with two Panavises attached to a 4 foot 2 X 6 or 8 bolted to the top for a travel bench. It seems form my measurements, I am 5 10", that a working surface height of between 33 and 37" will handle most situations for me. I have thought about BJH's bench and adding two bolted blocks with wing nuts each side of the legs over a cut that would be at a minimum height but spacers could be added to raise the bench height. I like the idea of how yellowhousejake turned the foot of his bench. I also have messaged with David Rase on his bench photos he posted a while back on making one of those that can be raised or lowered and he has the set up of a Versa vise mounted on a stand where he can work around it or use a secondary support. The Versa vice modifications or the Panavise allows one to rotate your work to the angle you wish to work from. Hope these ideas help. I am sure when we put our heads together, we will come up with a workable and comfortable bench all of us with back issues can use comfortably.
elkhorne

[ddoyle]

BJH, you know I love to show off my bench but I do not want to take this thread off topic.

On topic I wanted to mention a personal experience that taught me the importance of making the world work for your body as best as you can.

Back when I was a starving student and the drydocks were silent I took a job off a job board as a 'handyman'. Job turned out to be a tinkerer's position for a Dr. Alice Loomer. Alice was a Doctor and Author and consulting friend to a wide variety of the continent's most interesting figures. One of her Books Famous Flaws should be required reading for anyone who did not die in thier boots in thier early 20s.

Anyway Alice had Polio as a kid which put her in a wood and wicker wheel chair and post polio which steadily and slowly took away further physical abilities. What allowed her to leave N.S and practice medicine etc in America and to accomplish a whole lot including living independently to a sharp and witty old age was her constant and exacting adapting of tools/furniture/vehicles/utensiles/buildlings to suit her current condition.

It was an adaptive process hewn out of wood, string, wire, angle iron, leather, cloth and her favorite material kevlar.  The daughter of a Scots Naval officer turned agro industrialist she was exacting in her demands and created on the outer bounds of convention.  The result: She was able to spend well over a half century extra of doing what she wanted to do and to create what she wanted to create. Obviously there are limits to what we can do and obviously some jobs just need to be left graciously behind but do not give up till you have exhausted your attempts to make things work for you.  Sometimes a modest investment in tinkering will pay back many times over in joy and preservation of existing health. Heck by Alice's standards if you spend 80% of your time making it possible to spend the remaining 20% of your time doing what you want that is a fair trade.

Considering the overall seasoned demographic of gunbuilders we should really be seeing alot more in the way of tools/shops adapted to changing bodies.

[B.Habermehl]

My bench measures 46 inches to the top of the vise jaws. Wich is good for me and my focal length of my bi focals. It also is about the perfect height, for me to lean on the project and bench with my fore arms when I'm planning my next move. Hmmmm...  BTW I am 5' 9". One idea might be to attach temporary bottoms to the benchs legs, and shorten them till your back feels good working with the bench. The good thing is this tool is to be built custom made for your own needs.