Author Topic: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle  (Read 41462 times)

JohnHBryan

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #150 on: October 21, 2018, 11:30:43 PM »
John, I have not heard you adress any specific concerns about the attribution of this gun to Albrecht other than ad hominem responses such as “you’re not collectors”, “you find the rifle if this isn’t the one”, “you and your kind are always trying to disprove”, and other responses that address none of the following:

1) The furniture on RCA 19 and the sister gun is not seen on any other signed Moravian guns or those strongly attributed to Moravian gunsmiths. In contrast, other Moravian guns share common furniture elements.

2) The carving on 19 and the sister rifle does not resemble  the carving on any Albrecht gun or other Moravian attributed gun. In contrast, other signed and strongly attributed Moravian guns share carving style.

3) the patchbox cavity construction is entirely different from any Abrecht or any other Moravian-attributed gun and has no progeny in later Pennsylvania guns.

4) The engraving subjects and style do not resemble engraving on any Albrecht or Moravian-attributed guns.

The only possible response I could imagine is “it is a one-off gun”.  If that is the case, anyone could have made it.

Can you share your views on concerns 1-4 above substantially?

Are we still pretending both of these guns don’t have Germanic transitional profiles and features? They look just like the only known signed Albrecht rifle, just more transitional, for lack of a better term. Less curve in the butt, less carving entirely. Closer to a Jeager profile. Beaver tails are close to identical, C scrolls as well. Haven’t seen the patch box of the other one. Again: one signed Albrecht rifle in existence. I think some of you are comparing your own contemporary designs. Most of the other Moriavian rifles are later and more ornate. Apples to oranges. 

ETA: I don’t believe I used an ad hominem as you suggest. I’m just putting Mr Gordon’s strong opinions in perspective.. Of course I would assume most in the “antique gun collecting” firum are collectors, and I don’t assume I know more than any one of them....
« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 12:05:11 AM by JohnHBryan »

Offline 120RIR

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #151 on: October 22, 2018, 12:25:58 AM »
This entire discussion would have been far easier if that pesky "sister" rifle hadn't surfaced.  Just sayin'!   ;)

Offline spgordon

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #152 on: October 22, 2018, 12:27:06 AM »
My comments (just to repeat) addressed only the claims about the rifle made in Mr. Cowan's pamphlet, which were based on a reading of documents or claims about Moravian practices that, he thought, linked the rifle to Albrecht and to Paxinosa.

It was Mr. Cowan, that is, who grounded his case in that diary entry that he misread or misrepresented. It is the central exhibit in his pamphlet. He prints the image, just as Bob Lienemann did!

I think I have shown that the arguments that he made about Albrecht (way, way earlier on this post) and about Paxinosa (more recently) are simply mistaken and misleading. It is nothing personal. I never met Mr. Cowan. I am interested in Andreas Albrecht, have written at length about him (and he will be central to a book in progress), and so I want to make sure that what I say about him there is accurate and not merely a tall tale.

Perhaps there is another foundation for a claim about this rifle, the sort that collectors who can "read" the material object itself, which I cannot, can make. That is what Rich Pierce was asking about.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 12:42:09 AM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

JohnHBryan

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #153 on: October 22, 2018, 12:39:35 AM »
Let’s just see what surfaces. I will do my own research on Ernie s research, as I’m somewhat late to this conversation

more editing to remove content breaking rules
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 10:04:56 PM by rich pierce »

Offline spgordon

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #154 on: October 22, 2018, 12:40:28 AM »
I usually don't think of accuracy as an "agenda," but if it is one I will own it!

And feel free to go through this piece on Albrecht and call me out on any errors that you think I make. It is out here for anybody to read and criticize: https://www.immigrantentrepreneurship.org/entry.php?rec=263

I think if you do read it (and, yes, it is long) you'll see that it does not matter a whit to me as to whether Albrecht stocked a rifle for Paxinosa or not (we know he stocked one for some Shawnee). Or whether Albrecht made that rifle. It just does not matter. But it does matter to get things accurate and to not repeat legends that can be disproved.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2018, 01:09:22 AM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #155 on: October 22, 2018, 12:54:37 AM »
I will leave the Paxinosa association to Bob and Scott - they know far more about the archival material in question than I.  Also, my personal interest in both 19 and the shorty is not for whom either may have been made, but whether or not Albrecht made them.  The tricky thing here is that the two separate issues are somewhat intertwined, because my thoughts for what they are worth: 

(1) I do not doubt in any way that the two pieces were made *at the least* in the same shop, and very likely stocked by the same man.

(2) If it can be somehow proven that 19 is the gun mentioned in the documented diary entry, well then there really should be no doubt it was made by Albrecht.  If this is so, as I stated previously and as Rich has stated, it sure raises a number of interesting questions about other assumed Albrecht or Moravian-attributed rifles.

(3) I personally have no qualms whatsoever about dating either rifle as early as the 1750s, or as late as the 1770s.  In other words, there is nothing I see that could preclude 19 being early enough to fit the bill for the diary rifle.  The lock looks reconverted with a siler cock and frizzen but the plate and shaping of the lock sure looks early enough also.

(4)  As noted, nothing about either piece looks anything like any of the other assumed Moravian rifles.  Of course Oerter's dated rifles are 1770s so they are much later, and rifles such as Marshall's rifle or the Lion/Lamb which seem earlier may at the same time be perhaps 1760s, so even they may be at the least 10 years later.  Things can change - suppliers, style etc.  Bob has illustrated that they were purchasing parts and furnishings:  can not the style of the furnishings dictate somewhat of the style?

I do not see either of these rifles as in any way similar to Albrecht's lone signed much later rifle.  That rifle looks very classic early Lancaster-ish or Dickert-ish.  These rifles almost seem to have a whiff of a French twist in the style of the stock shaping, despite being very German.  Other than a lack of a stepped wrist, I do not see any comparison between the assumed-Lititz rifle and these two earlier rifles.

In regard to the box cavity - that is of course a very German way of cutting a box mortice, and an early method. Possibly it became passe as time passed?  I don't have an answer for that.  There are other little things that don't quite mesh with what I see upon the other attributed Moravian guns, the manner in which the lock 'beavertails' are designed jumping out somewhat.  Again, however, perhaps things changed over time, or perhaps guns such as the Marshall gun and Lion/Lamb were actually made by Oerter.  I think the Lion/Lamb is an Oerter rifle anyway.

It is certainly very possible that both rifles are Albrecht pieces of the 1750s.  Unfortunately, much more work needs to be done in attempts to definitively determine if there is in fact a signature on the shorty, and if it is Albrecht's.  If they are Albrecht work of the 1750s, it's possible they may be the only two pieces of his that have survived other than the later gun assumed to have been made at Lititz.  Many questions there.
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Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #156 on: October 22, 2018, 01:50:01 AM »
I will leave the Paxinosa association to Bob and Scott - they know far more about the archival material in question than I.  Also, my personal interest in both 19 and the shorty is not for whom either may have been made, but whether or not Albrecht made them.  The tricky thing here is that the two separate issues are somewhat intertwined, because my thoughts for what they are worth: 

(1) I do not doubt in any way that the two pieces were made *at the least* in the same shop, and very likely stocked by the same man.

(2) If it can be somehow proven that 19 is the gun mentioned in the documented diary entry, well then there really should be no doubt it was made by Albrecht.  If this is so, as I stated previously and as Rich has stated, it sure raises a number of interesting questions about other assumed Albrecht or Moravian-attributed rifles.

(3) I personally have no qualms whatsoever about dating either rifle as early as the 1750s, or as late as the 1770s.  In other words, there is nothing I see that could preclude 19 being early enough to fit the bill for the diary rifle.  The lock looks reconverted with a siler cock and frizzen but the plate and shaping of the lock sure looks early enough also.

(4)  As noted, nothing about either piece looks anything like any of the other assumed Moravian rifles.  Of course Oerter's dated rifles are 1770s so they are much later, and rifles such as Marshall's rifle or the Lion/Lamb which seem earlier may at the same time be perhaps 1760s, so even they may be at the least 10 years later.  Things can change - suppliers, style etc.  Bob has illustrated that they were purchasing parts and furnishings:  can not the style of the furnishings dictate somewhat of the style?

I do not see either of these rifles as in any way similar to Albrecht's lone signed much later rifle.  That rifle looks very classic early Lancaster-ish or Dickert-ish.  These rifles almost seem to have a whiff of a French twist in the style of the stock shaping, despite being very German.  Other than a lack of a stepped wrist, I do not see any comparison between the assumed-Lititz rifle and these two earlier rifles.

In regard to the box cavity - that is of course a very German way of cutting a box mortice, and an early method. Possibly it became passe as time passed?  I don't have an answer for that.  There are other little things that don't quite mesh with what I see upon the other attributed Moravian guns, the manner in which the lock 'beavertails' are designed jumping out somewhat.  Again, however, perhaps things changed over time, or perhaps guns such as the Marshall gun and Lion/Lamb were actually made by Oerter.  I think the Lion/Lamb is an Oerter rifle anyway.

It is certainly very possible that both rifles are Albrecht pieces of the 1750s.  Unfortunately, much more work needs to be done in attempts to definitively determine if there is in fact a signature on the shorty, and if it is Albrecht's.  If they are Albrecht work of the 1750s, it's possible they may be the only two pieces of his that have survived other than the later gun assumed to have been made at Lititz.  Many questions there.

I also believe many/most of the Albrecht "attributed" rifles are actually early Oerter guns, he was busy getting past the "stepped toe" most his entire life.   I also believe  the only signed Albrecht gun is  a restocked gun done by Dickert. I'm not entirely convinced we have yet seen an actual Albrecht made gun or if one survived intact. There seems to be only  speculation at this point, not that it makes much difference, people are going to draw their own assumptions and that's fine.

 I have always admired and studied RCA 19, but to me  architecturally  it doesn't seem to relate well to the Christian's Spring guns or the surrounding area, it certainly doesn't stop me from enjoying the gun, but hey, what do I know? :P Has anybody else noticed how disproportionally long the octagon section is on RCA 19? Certainly a cut down and restocked French gun barrel...… not that that makes any difference either.
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Offline Dan Fruth

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #157 on: October 22, 2018, 02:40:47 AM »
I agree with you Mike. RCA 19 likes more like RCA 17. Take off the scabbed walnut strip on the underside of the stock and raise the nose of the comb a bit.  Similar side plates as well.....Just thinkin out loud...If thats still OK.....Which means if the attribution for #17 is Wm. Antes, then that raises a whole bunch of new possibilities. He was certainly of age to have been the builder....
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #158 on: October 22, 2018, 03:07:58 AM »
Attributing 17 to William Antes is stretching attributions about as far as one could stretch.  JMHO.
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #159 on: October 22, 2018, 03:29:45 AM »
There are a good many early rifles that will never be satisfactorily attributed. I’m guessing there are dozens of gunsmiths who worked in Pennsylvania alone in the 1750s and 1760s with no rifles that can be attributed to them by consensus. And new things pop up from time to time, like the Leyendecker patchbox, that identify a maker previously unknown. It is frustrating but given most early rifles are not signed, it seems we will always be guessing and debating who made certain exciting early rifles.
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #160 on: October 22, 2018, 03:47:36 AM »
There are a good many early rifles that will never be satisfactorily attributed. I’m guessing there are dozens of gunsmiths who worked in Pennsylvania alone in the 1750s and 1760s with no rifles that can be attributed to them by consensus. And new things pop up from time to time, like the Leyendecker patchbox, that identify a maker previously unknown. It is frustrating but given most early rifles are not signed, it seems we will always be guessing and debating who made certain exciting early rifles.

You can say that again.
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bcowern

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #161 on: October 22, 2018, 09:45:09 PM »
Dumb question: What does RCA refer to?

Thanks

Offline spgordon

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #162 on: October 22, 2018, 09:50:15 PM »


Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

bcowern

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #163 on: October 23, 2018, 12:58:24 AM »
spgordon,

Thank you for your reply.

Regards

JohnHBryan

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #164 on: October 23, 2018, 04:23:09 PM »
I've been doing some of my own research on Shawnee history, symbolism, and the history of the Shawnee in PA at that time, and I think I'll have some interesting updates.  I think there's more to the panther engraving which even Ernie, as enthusiastic as he was, missed.... An additional clue.  As Mr. Blienneman said, more research needs to be done, and fortunately it seems there is actually a lot out there to try and piece together.

Is anyone going to the show in VA this weekend?  My father is coming up, and we are going to go together, possibly Saturday.  I could bring this gun along.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 04:24:14 PM by JohnHBryan »

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #165 on: October 23, 2018, 05:53:19 PM »
John it's really wonderful of you to be so willing to allow people to view and/or handle the piece, as well as to be so willing to share photography (which I think is quite good!).  Just saying - thanks.

Turning back to the short "sister rifle:"  does anyone know what now is to become of it after Ernie's passing?  It's incredibly important to this entire discussion, not to mention it's a spectacular example of a very early apparently-American piece in its own right.  There was some discussion in another thread about methods forensics labs might use to determine faint or barely legible markings, such as a series of photos with varying light angles which are then essentially photoshopped together in layers.  I think that could be a very useful, non-destructive technique which might shed more light no pun intended on the signature.
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Offline 120RIR

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #166 on: October 23, 2018, 06:07:03 PM »
Being the trouble-maker who started this particular RCA 19/Albrecht/sister rifle discussion, I'd love to see additional solid research on the panther/spear motif.  Although I'm stuck out here on the Left Coast, the first half of my career (archaeologist) was in the northeast and particularly Pennsylvania.  I know I've seen historical reference to the panther/spear having some antiquity (i.e., well before the 18th century) but after nearly 20 years out here, I cannot find those references and my contacts in Pennsylvania have either moved on or in at least one case, passed away.  In the end of course, further elucidating the nature of the panther and spear probably won't shed any light on who made the rifle but it might be helpful in establishing potential connections of RCA 19.  As for the "sister" rifle, I'm trying to track down its whereabouts...and I'm not the only one so who knows?  Maybe we'll get a chance to look at it in detail sometime in the not-too-distant future.

Offline spgordon

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #167 on: October 23, 2018, 06:47:04 PM »
John, you mentioned somewhere above that you have a signed Moravian rifle with an engraved snake and bird of prey. Can you share photos of it--or at least mention which Moravian gunmaker signed it?
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

JohnHBryan

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #168 on: October 23, 2018, 07:27:41 PM »
John it's really wonderful of you to be so willing to allow people to view and/or handle the piece, as well as to be so willing to share photography (which I think is quite good!).  Just saying - thanks.

Turning back to the short "sister rifle:"  does anyone know what now is to become of it after Ernie's passing?  It's incredibly important to this entire discussion, not to mention it's a spectacular example of a very early apparently-American piece in its own right.  There was some discussion in another thread about methods forensics labs might use to determine faint or barely legible markings, such as a series of photos with varying light angles which are then essentially photoshopped together in layers.  I think that could be a very useful, non-destructive technique which might shed more light no pun intended on the signature.

I don't know where the sister gun is, but after looking again at the photos of I have of both rifles side by side in many different views, they are identical in so many ways.  Moreover, the hardware and its engraving have an identical patina.  The panther, etc., engraving matches the engraving on the ramrod pipes on the shorty, etc., IMO.  They definitely belong together.

I would like to see some additional efforts made on the signature.  I know Ernie was trying hard to get it clear in a photograph.  But I don't know whether he was using computer technology.

I also have this lock, one of the very few items with Albrecht's actual signature on it....




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JohnHBryan

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #169 on: October 23, 2018, 09:20:07 PM »
John, you mentioned somewhere above that you have a signed Moravian rifle with an engraved snake and bird of prey. Can you share photos of it--or at least mention which Moravian gunmaker signed it?

Mr Gordon, As someone suspected, I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Moravian, yes. Signed,yes. 18th century, no. Old Salem, NC rather than PA.












Offline spgordon

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #170 on: October 23, 2018, 09:50:17 PM »
I missed the tongue in cheek part. Sorry. I was going to reply when you made that announcement by asking whether the rifle was signed by an eighteenth-century Moravian or a twenty-first century one--and that I could find any number of twenty-first century Moravians willing to sign anything you like--but I thought that would have been taking things a bit far. I guess not!

But I guess the fact that you were joking leaves the question wide open: are there other early Moravian rifles with engravings (not carvings) of animals?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 09:51:57 PM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

JohnHBryan

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #171 on: October 23, 2018, 10:01:41 PM »
I missed the tongue in cheek part. Sorry. I was going to reply when you made that announcement by asking whether the rifle was signed by an eighteenth-century Moravian or a twenty-first century one--and that I could find any number of twenty-first century Moravians willing to sign anything you like--but I thought that would have been taking things a bit far. I guess not!

But I guess the fact that you were joking leaves the question wide open: are there other early Moravian rifles with engravings (not carvings) of animals?

That rifle was made by a 19th century Moravian....  Vogler family of gunsmiths. The Vogler gunshop is still in Old Salem - the oldest operating gunshop still in existence in the country I believe. 


Offline spgordon

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #172 on: October 23, 2018, 10:16:50 PM »
Yup, signature is clear in the last photo.
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline JTR

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #173 on: October 23, 2018, 11:11:59 PM »
Thanks for posting pictures of the best Vogler family rifle known, and arguably the best NC rifle known as well!

Perhaps its just me, but I find it ironic that we have a guy, spgordon, who admits he knows nothing about these antique rifles, but none the less is arguing the merits credibility, or lack thereof, of these guns, when its painfully obvious that he knows absolutely nothing about the gun or guns in question... 

John
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 01:39:36 AM by JTR »
John Robbins

Offline spgordon

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Re: RCA 19 "Sister" Rifle
« Reply #174 on: October 23, 2018, 11:19:25 PM »
I haven't said a single word about the merits of these guns.

I have said a lot about whether the argument that Albrecht stocked a rifle for Paxinosa makes sense. That doesn't address the "merit" of the guns at all.

Added: John, please correct whatever you think I got obviously wrong....
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 12:10:23 AM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook